Liam's Sacrifice - temple of doom style

[Narissa]

Since so much drama came up over this, might as well make the log public...

Springdale square.
Crafty Ailiana, The Elixir of Temptation is here.
You see, in your mind, Squire Liam, Defender of the Faithful shrouded in a cloak of invisibility.
You discern presence: (a rune stave).

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Squire".

Someone blinks.

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "I have need of you".

You beckon to Someone.

Squire Liam says, "What can you do for me".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "I can slay you for impudence, or I can let you live and experience a ritual to honor the Lady Xanthe".

Squire Liam says, "Wow".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Come now, and be silent. Few are given such options".

Crafty Ailiana says, "Now that's some good pr ".

Squire Liam says, "To waht do i owe this honor".

msg liam just a bit of RP, come on and enjoy it, I'll even bash you up after
Message sent to Liam.

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Your soul is...".

Narissa's lips turn up into a snarled grimace, as she spits out the word, "Pure."

Someone utters a deep, rumbling laugh.

Someone has started to follow you.

Crafty Ailiana says, "Liam aren't you just fresh off the lw list?".

Squire Liam says, "Yup".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Hush, heathen one".

Crafty Ailiana says, "Bite me".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "You know nothing of the divine".

Your action costs your patron 10 essence.
You GO directly to Someone.
A glowing rune staff is the last thing to catch your attention.
Throne Room of Vengeance.
Someone is here, surrounded by an aura of protection. He wields an adamant longsword. Sketchy is
here. A golden eagle proudly bears him. A large log of generic wood lies fallen here. There are two
mystical unicorns here. A giant rat scuttles around in the shadows, dribbling menacingly. The rat is
called Sewer Scum. An ethereal mist hangs in the air about Sketchy.
You heave a heavy sigh of relief as you duck out of public view.
A figure flits into view in the shadows of your mind.

Throne Room of Vengeance.
You see, in your mind, Count Trakea shrouded in a cloak of invisibility.
Alister, Bladesmaster is here.
You see, in your mind, Squire Liam, Defender of the Faithful shrouded in a cloak of invisibility.
You can discern no hidden presences here.

Someone cheers wildly!

Someone doffs his hat to Squire Liam.

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "The squire is here".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Any guests we wish to invite?".
*** blah blah everyone arriving ***

Narissa stares at Liam with an imperious glare, gesturing to the base of the throne. "Restrain him there," she murmurs, twitching her hand slightly

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "And silence. This is the Lady's high temple, respect it, please".

Throne Room of Vengeance.
You see, in your mind, Apprentice Sorcerer Oromis, Nocturnus shrouded in a cloak of invisibility.
Mistress Eldereth is here.
You see, in your mind, Count Trakea shrouded in a cloak of invisibility.
Alister, Bladesmaster is here.
Sorcerer Caithris Marsaynn is here.
You see, in your mind, Squire Liam, Defender of the Faithful shrouded in a cloak of invisibility.
You discern presence: (Orision, consumer of souls), (Tawiscara, great demon of confusion).

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Reveal yourselves in the presence of Xanthe".

Count Trakea has just appeared.

Squire Liam has just appeared.

Apprentice Sorcerer Oromis has just appeared.

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "As I said, restrain the Paladin at the base of the throne".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "And silence the haunts".

Count Trakea whispers softly to Sketchy.
You overhear the words, "sleep-bind?".
Your rune-bug picks up words; Count Trakea tells Sketchy, "Sleep-bind?".

Sketchy hurtles in and lays in a flying tackle to knock over Squire Liam.

Count Trakea splashes Squire Liam from a blue potion.

Sketchy takes a batch of rope from his utility belt.
Sketchy trusses up the hands and feet of Squire Liam with rope.

You nod your head emphatically.

Sketchy bows respectfully to you.

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Excellent".

Sketchy says, "Shall we remove his tongue as well?".

Narissa lowers her head and begins to meditate softly. After a moment, she stands before you, a faint aura beginning to shine about her body, the powers of the High Priestess manifesting themselves at her bidding.

Narissa shakes her head in swift negation. "He will be silent in the presence of the Lady," she says, "If he knows what is good for him."

Narissa begins to address the followers, her voice low and resonating with the touch of divine power.

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Worshippers of the Lady - why do we follow Vengeance?".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Is it for the blood? The glory? The fame?".

Sketchy ponders the problem for a moment.

Mistress Eldereth says, "It is so we may choose our own destiny".

Narissa glances around the congregation, her eyes flashing

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Exactly".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "It is for the soul that we follow the Lady Xanthe".

Sketchy nods his head emphatically.

Sketchy says, "So that we might strengthen her".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "A soul not driven by destiny or tawdry morals - no, a soul that we make strong and a soul that we lead".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "A soul all members of Her faith share".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "For, when one of us dies, do we not feel the pain?".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "The Lady's power wanes with each hurt Her followers feel".

Mistress Eldereth says, "Never did when it was caelred.".

Mistress Eldereth gives a cough.

Narissa pauses, flashing a wry grin to Eldereth

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "There was pain there, but more from exasperation".

Mistress Eldereth nods her head at you.

Count Trakea says, "We do not feel that pain, for we know we will take it back ten-fold".

Count Trakea says, "In our Lady's name".

Narissa strides before the worshippers, raising her hands aloft, a faint scarlet light glowing between them. She raises her voice, continuing. "And when we succeed and become more powerful, do we all not rejoice in that!"

Sketchy twinkles his eyes enigmatically.

Narissa turns again, glancing down at the prone Paladin, a soft smile coming to her face

Sorcerer Caithris's eyes glitter menacingly.

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "I bring before you today a pure soul".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "One untouched by the tenets of the Lady".

Sketchy prods Squire Liam.

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "A soul that is empty and lacking, do we not agree?".

Count Trakea nods his head emphatically.

Squire Liam empty?

Sorcerer Caithris glares at Squire Liam in a menacing manner.

Narissa bends down, gently caressing the young squire's cheek. With a feral grin, she stares back at the congregation. "Shall we seek to amend that, my brethren?" she murmurs lowly, a fiery gleam in her eyes

Sketchy sucks at his teeth thoughtfully.

Count Trakea says, "Here-here!".

Sketchy says, "Suppose...".

Sketchy says, "Is he worthy?".

Apprentice Sorcerer Oromis calls his demons about his darkened form, poised to do his bidding.

Narissa motions to Trakea and Eldereth. "Grasp his arms," she says, before pointing at Alister. "Hold his feet down."

Sketchy draws back his foot, preparing a short-jab kick.

Sketchy strikes out with her foot at the right leg of Squire Liam, cracking the bone horribly.

Sketchy draws back his foot, preparing a short-jab kick.

Sketchy strikes out with her foot at the left leg of Squire Liam, cracking the bone horribly.

Count Trakea firmly holds the Paladins right arm.

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Sorcerers, have your demons guard the exits. His soul must not depart before we are finished".

Sorcerer Caithris nods, and flashes his eyes to a horned demon, who silently strides toward the door.

Mistress Eldereth performs the brief rites of undead calling.

The Angel of Death blocks the northern escape, glaring at all who pass.

Narissa strides to the throne itself, kneeling low before the statue of Xanthe. With a mumbled chant, she bows her head in prayer, before wisping shadows coalesce into a blackened knife, the blade sharply resolving itself on the floor before her

Narissa firmly grasps the blade, rising to her feet. Stepping close to Liam, she bends down to whisper in his ear. "This will hurt, child," she murmurs, "Make no mistake. This is part of what the Lady means."

Squire Liam says, "Do you want me to come for you to seek vengeance?".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Perhaps".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Silence now, lest I remove your tongue".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Worshippers".

Count Trakea bows respectfully.

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Why is pain necessary for the Lady's beliefs?".

Count Trakea says, "For without pain, one can not truly understand the heart of revenge".

Narissa inclines her head at Trakea. "A worthy answer," she concedes.

Count Trakea says, "Vengeance is only born from loss and suffering".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Without pain, without suffering, without torment, without LOSS - what do you fight for?".

Sketchy says, "False ideals".

Count Trakea says, "Empty causes".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Without these, you have what we see before us - an empty soul".

Narissa chuckles darkly. "One could say a soul...waiting to be inscribed upon..." As her laughter dies down, she kneels next to the knight, slowly tracing the knife along his cheek, the sharp blade cutting small furrows which seep blood.

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Caithris".

Sorcerer Caithris says, "Yes, high-priestess".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Remove his shirt. Cut it away".

Sorcerer Caithris orders his imp to use his razor-sharp claws. The imp tears the shirt of the Paladin
to shreds, laughing hysterically.

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "The body, worshippers, is another way we honor the Lady - by honing ourselves for combat, we bring glory and power to her".

You have been blessed with favour from Proteus, god of the sea.

Narissa accentuates her words by gouging her knife deeper into the Paladin's skin. "When the body falters, the fight dies," she explains, pausing, then carefully smears a streak of blood across the boy's forehead. "But only the fight of the physical."

Narissa brings her knife down to the squire's throat, letting the tip rest against the hollow there. His pulsing vein presses against the blade, and each shallow breath he inhales nicks a cut against the cold metal. "The fight of the soul," she continues, "Is not defeated by pain, torture, crippling torment, or death itself."

Narissa slowly slides the knife lower, deeper, piercing the skin and slicing the boy's frail chest open. As his organs are exposed to the chill chamber, she turns, fixing the congregation with a sharp gaze. "We give Liam a gift today," she intones. "One of pain unimaginable."

Narissa gently, almost tenderly, reaches into the boy's chest and pulls out the still-beating heart. As the organ pulses in her hand, she rises, facing the worshippers. "The pain he endures gives him a glimpse of what the Lady offers." Pausing, she holds the heart high in the air, blood splattering down on the ground, crimson tendrils tracing along her forearms. "By his death, he is given a fleeting vision of the afterlives of Vengeance - the power and will to continue the struggle when despair and pain hound at you to simply stay sleeping once you have been sent into the arms of Death."

Though he has remained silent throughout, Liam emits a terrified shriek upon seeing his heart removed.

Narissa reverently lays the heart in the lap of the statue, stepping back as scarlet light flashes about it, enveloping the organ. "Kill him," she whispers, flicking her hand towards the prone knight, turning her back on the boy.

Squire Liam is lashed painfully by an arc of crackling light.
 
Apprentice Sorcerer Oromis chants a cruel litany and you see Squire Liam reel as though choked.

Squire Liam screams wildly as Count Trakea sends a brilliantine spear of light into his chest.
Squire Liam is thrown back by the blast, and his chest cavity is ripped to pieces by the awesome
magic.
Liam has been slain by Count Trakea.
Some white magic fends away the rapidly approaching Death from consuming the soul of Squire Liam,
Defender of the Faithful.

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Again!".

Apprentice Sorcerer Oromis chants a cruel litany and you see Squire Liam reel as though choked.

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "For the Lady".

Apprentice Sorcerer Oromis chants a cruel litany and you see Squire Liam reel as though choked.

Squire Liam screams wildly as Count Trakea sends a brilliantine spear of light into his chest.
Squire Liam is thrown back by the blast, and his chest cavity is ripped to pieces by the awesome
magic.
Liam has been slain by Count Trakea.
Liam returns to haunt Avalon as a ghost.
Squire Liam, Defender of the Faithful rises again as a ghost to haunt Avalon still.

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Now".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "He will return to life, restored by the benevolence of Our Lady".

Count Trakea kneels before the might of his patron, Xanthe, the goddess of vengeance.

The ghost of Squire Liam is enveloped by a cloudy gas for a moment. After a few seconds, the cloud
disperses and Squire Liam is no longer a ghost.

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Liam".

Squire Liam nods his head emphatically.

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "You have been granted another chance at this world - but bear in mind".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Your soul is now gifted".

Squire Liam tilts his head and listens intently.

Squire Liam says, "Gifted?".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "No longer are you the pure, empty weak thing you entered her as".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "You have been given a view of the power revenge can instill. Make use of it".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Escort him out".

Sketchy begins to drag Squire Liam with him.

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "The rest of you".

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Please join me in a moment of prayer".

Squire Liam tells Thief Mistress Narissa, "You're right!".

Sorcerer Caithris lowers his head.

Narissa kneels before the throne once more. "Kneel beside me," she says, motioning for the crowd to sit

Count Trakea kneels before the might of his patron, Xanthe, the goddess of vengeance.

Sorcerer Caithris kneels to Xanthe, the goddess of vengeance.

Sketchy kneels before the might of his patron, Xanthe, the goddess of vengeance.

Apprentice Sorcerer Oromis kneels to Xanthe, the goddess of vengeance.

Apprentice Sorcerer Oromis closes his eyes and turns his head towards the sky.

Narissa bows her head, her voice low and touched by the divine.

Narissa chants, "Lady Xanthe, may our souls never be weak."

Narissa chants, "Lady Xanthe, may our bodies stay strong."

Narissa chants, "Lady Xanthe, may we find our way to Vengeance and overturn all who have harmed us."

Narissa chants, "Lady Xanthe, may Your guidance let us transform the pain of yesterday into the domination and glory of tomorrow."

Narissa bows her head for a moment, the aura around her dispersing and fading into mist. With a sigh, she turns, and stands

Thief Mistress Narissa says, "Thank you all for attending this small ceremony. Go with glory, and walk with the Lady".

[Narissa]

And the responses...

Catlania: "Im a bit dismayed, I was telling the young of our city, that Thakrians can be evil, but
their Princess had a decent head on her shoulders... Then i got the log"
Catlania: "I dont care what you call it, its fucking sick"
Catlania: "Even in roleplay, its fucking sick......... I was SICK TO MY STOMACK IN REAL LIFE"
Catlania: "I abhore the fact that that kind of roleplay is even allowed... If i had the guts, which i
dont... I would quit this silly game"
Catlania: "If roleplay means chasing people out of the game... More power to you"
Fatalus: "I read the log of your fine show of a ritual and roleplay. I'm sure it made an impression
on the young, perhaps as endearing as a gang rape. Not that I'm threatening such a thing myself,
just using it as a relative comparison. Perhaps you'll remember it fondly too."

Message #10194.
Date: 30-3-2007 at 4:20.
From: Herbalist Zilveren Epicurean, Restorer of Life [Freewoman].
To : Everyone.
Subj: Leaving.

I was brought aware today of certain rites that are being practiced by members of this city. As an
animist I was most horrified to find out exactly what they were. As a member of a guild and
profession that keeps life upheld as a most sacred thing, I cannot condone what is being done. It
goes against every single belief and ideal I have. I am going back into the woods. I can't live here
knowing things like that are happening. If you need my help or aide, ask and I will do what I can.


Zilveren

Written by my hand on the 15th of Hindyear, in the year 1183.

3715/3781:ELDERS
BB>
Message #3716.
Date: 19-4-2007 at 4:27.
From: Proteus, god of the sea [God].
To  : Everyone.
Subj: Scary Roleplay.

I know the time of the incident has passed a little, but I wanted to address the issue of Narissa's
torture of Liam in Xanthe's temple.


Many are up in arms about whole thing and it is said that is why Liam left the land. There are some
particulars people may not know about regarding the incident. Liam actually addressed me at the time
calling attention to the fact he was being tortured. Seeing that it was all being emoted, etc and no
real damage was being inflicted and his belongings weren't being stripped, I told him I could not
exert any power in Xanthe's temple.

The truth is, I was watching the proceedings very closely and would have intervened had it actually
turned sadistic. I was ready to jump in when Narissa ordered him killed until I noticed Liam had
been given a life potion and at his level the experience loss was pretty much nil. But again, if
people started taking turns killing him, Liam would have found himself wisked away and perhaps
replaced with something very powerful and angry.

Though it may dismay many of you, I have to say I support such events and hope similar things will
occur in the future. (Though they don't always have to be negative, calling down divine blessings on
a stalwart knight would be nice too.) +

Part of the problem is that the best opportunity to scare someone is when they are young and don't
have the ability to flee. When Grundy was a young lad, he was the guest of the sorcerers exitless
torture chamber a few times and was part of attempts to free people from said chamber. It wasn't
until much later he realized his captors had been taking their sweet time draining his health
allowing him the opportunity to drink potions and erect defenses as he wriggled wildly trying to
escape.

And that was nothing next the Diabolus who would take married couples to the torture chambers beneath
Gharran and promise to let them go if one revoked their vows of love for the other.

It may dismay you even more to learn that I favoured Narissa for going to the effort of putting on a
good show.

However, it occurs to me that perhaps there might need to be some rules and understandings
established if these things are to continue. First seems to be the issue of holding these events in
a god's temple where rescuers not only have to battle their enemies but tempt the disfavour of the
deity for attacking people in the temple.

The other thing is that you may want to ask a god deity to monitor the situation you are about to
create so that any claims of sadistic behavior can be refuted by the deity. I am not going to speak
for any one else's willingness to keep an eye on things, but I obviously am.

Responses? Discussion?

Proteus, god of the sea

Message #3719.
Date: 20-4-2007 at 0:04.
From: Fatalus the Scrounger.
To  : Everyone.
Subj: Art or Pornography.

For our first few months in this realm, it is ALL scary. We serve our newer members well as we build
bridges to add to that sense of reality. It gives them purpose to accomplish what we hope will be
great deeds and to leave
 their indelible mark upon the land.

My first impression to reading the ritual log was that it was a circle jerk. Yes, I could see the
participant's performance as role-play, but I would consider the total environment before passing it
off as some great  cultural piece of artwork to be repeated. I judged it to be a bridge too far.

Liam is (or was) a stout fellow just off of LW status in a realm where his side is at severe
disadvantage. Having been coerced and then jumped, he was quite dazed and struggled to make sense of
it all. Eventually, he  understood he had been made a fool.

Now insert yourself here at this age. Your own skills at retribution are minimal at a one on one.
Your comrades are relatively few and far between, quite outnumbered so even a team counterjump for
-insert favorite  roleplay reason here- is out of the question.

Yes, Liam with chin up and what pride he could muster told us all he was leaving for RL reasons. But
let's not kid ourselves folks. Liam left just days afterwards for being absolutely humiliated and no
hope to redeem himself.

Hindsight is 20 20. I perhaps made a mistake here for not inventing some counter roleplay reason
myself and invoking some DF to his defense and honor. I rather doubt it would have been received
well on the other side if  I had.

I won't say don't run the quest again, but in this man's opinion, choosing the absolutely youngest
possible member off of LW status showed completely poor judgment. The net effect is that this ritual
with young Liam as the victim had as much artistic value as a fraternity organized gang bang.

Written by my hand on the 30th of Eleuthral, in the year 1185.

3719/3781:ELDERS
BB>
Message #3720.
Date: 20-4-2007 at 0:16.
From: Orielle, for wanton mischief.
To  : Fatalus the Scrounger.
Subj: Role Play.

I am going to agree with you ( and trust me this is roleplay!! I never agree with Fatalus!)


I think it is fine to have a marvelous bit of roleplay - evil or not. What I do not agree with is
taking a small player to do it with. If you want to roleplay something like was done then do it with
someone your size. Who at least has a chance and knows what is going on.

I say this having been one who was raped by Panaideos. But not as a child in the land. Even he did
not choose a small player to do this with. And he was a total definition of "evil". Choose someone
next time who can "fight back" instead of a "slam dunk."

Of course this might not end up as well from the "roleplayer's" point of view. But it would be more
honest.

Orielle

Written by my hand on the 1st of Mournsend, in the year 1185.

Message #3722.
Date: 20-4-2007 at 8:05.
From: Catlania.
To  : Everyone.
Subj: Roleplay Incident.

I am just glad that Avalon and roleplay give an outlet to these sick, evil, twisted folks!


Written by my hand on the 8th of Mournsend, in the year 1185.

And that, folks, is why RP rarely happens in Avalon...

[Algernon]

It appears that this event took place just weeks before I entered the land - that's how young I am.  Since I'm not that far away from my own LW days, it is easy to imagine myself in Liam's position.  Even so, Proteus's judgment satisfied my concerns.

Besides Oromis splashing the player with life potion, I noted that Narissa msg'd Liam offering to "bash him up" afterwards, which I read as an offer to replace any xp he would lose in the 'ritual.'  As Proteus observed, the development of this player's character would not be hindered and could even BENEFIT. 

Sure it is spooky RP, and when I was just off the LW list that would have been an enormously weird experience.  (Or now.)  Not long ago, my own character was abducted, imprisoned, and tortured just a bit.   My initial reaction to this was real outrage - but I just couldn't keep it up.  With a day or two of perspective, I started giggling and felt sorry that I had been such a spoilsport.  To reclaim some spirit of RP, I amended my character's description and gave him some scars.

Indeed, around this time I thought of leaving the game because I was getting jumped a lot, wasn't very good at fighting (that's still true, btw), and it seemed there was nothing to Avalon but panning and fighting, watching xp go up and down. 

The suggestions by Proteus seem wise to me - to orient youngsters about RP, including spooky RP, so that it does not humiliate anybody, but enriches ones creative experience of the land.  This topic inspires me to be a little more creative in Avalon.  Liam, for instance, could have been "cleansed" or had his heart restored or whatever, in a beautiful ritual supervised by animists; or a ceremony of restoring honor could have been staged by the Paladins; or something else.  (These are just the first ideas that spring to mind - in ten minutes, you could probably come up with a better idea.) 

There is a young character who very recently switched cities, and became the target of some scary RP.  Nasty messages from outraged characters.  She even believes her horse was tracked down and killed.  (That has not been verified.)  The player confessed that she felt rather freaked out in RL.  Explanations didn't really help her much and after several days she hasn't been back.  Hmm.  I am moved to arrange some kind of beautiful guild event at which she might be presented with a new horse, and perhaps other gifts, to balance out the spooky RP with ... um ... the Light.  (Cough.) 

[Narissa]

Wonderful, Algernon - this is the kind of thing we need. The guilds are slowly making ending apprenticeship into little rituals, but random things are also great. Turn a situation interesting by crafting it into something more unique.

[Danton]

I just want to sound a nbote of caution regarding the whole 'roleplay' issue. As one who is an avowed afficionado of Hammer horror movies, I found little disturbing in the content of the ritual presented above. Others, however, from the responses presented by Narissa, clearly felt different. This leads directly to the issue of OOC consent. Quite simply, if a player is uncomfortable with this kind of roleplay then it should not be inflicted on them. Of course, the character is expected to be unhappy, but if the player lets it be known, OOC, that they are uncomfortable with the situation then those involved should desist immediately - finding a good in-game excuse, of course.

     To put it simply, coercion in-game, is one thing, but it should not translate to coercion of the OOC player. No doubt some will object that this will spoil the spontaneity and dynamism of the game, but we should remember that people's in-game actions DO impact on the OOC experience of the game and can spoil their playing experience and lead to them quitting the game. As far as I can see from the above log and Proteus' comments, the participants in this ritual were messaging Liam to say they would make up for it later (whether they did or not is another matter) and he seemed to be going along with the business. But we do need to remember that roleplayed actions do have RL impact and should adjust our actions accordingly - otherwise roleplay just becomes bullying or worse.

       One more thing, possibly off-topic, but am I to judge from Orielle's comment above that a player was enacting his rape fantasies in the game? If people want to carry on in this manner with other consenting players, then fine (though there are more appropriate venues available online for such things). But, again, consent is vital - if the aforementioned player was REALLY jumping unwitting players and role-playing rape, then I hope their account was stopped. (I need not add that if such actions were to involve a minor - I know of at least one twelve-year-old player - it could easily become a matter for the police.) I hope Orielle was speaking metaphorically, but I know of at least one incident in my time where a player was teamed, killed, and then urinated on by one of her attackers. In my view, getting your sick kicks in this way is clearly not on without consent - and there are plenty of other websites that cater for that sort of thing. So again, I think more consideration needs to be given to how roleplaying actions might impact on other players' experience of the game.

      You might note that I have not been in-game for some time now: weariness with observing the much lower-level bullying-masquerading-as-roleplaying that goes on every day has played some part in that. Sorry if I sound prudish - I'm not (and can bring witnesses  ) - but I am (or was) careful and I think we all need to be, especially if it involves roleplay such as the above - which, by the way, I thought was very well done.

[Narissa]

Again, as has been made clear - it's always, in the end, just a game. It may seem intense and important and consuming, but people need to know where the line is and when to step out. That is a very important *personal* limit that needs to be defined - quite often, in the case of muds, there aren't even other people there to pressure you, it's simply the game itself.

With that said, inflicted RP is terrible, especially when it's involving sensitive topics. Many know of my flip out in FA when I was forced to re-enact a rape, a situation a god placed me in that I could not have removed myself from, short of qqing. At the time, I was far too enthalled (in a sick, vampiric way) to even do that, so I had a few days of freak out over it. It's partially because I *have* experienced bad, non-consenual RP that I get so pissed off over people crying foul over quite harmless situations that are nothing worse than, in the end, watching a Freddy Kruegar movie. If you can't handle my silly emotes, then you likely can't handle the texts for a cleave or a brilliance, either, and I have to wonder how you manage to play Avalon at all.

[Danton]

It's partially because I *have* experienced bad, non-consenual RP that I get so pissed off over people crying foul over quite harmless situations that are nothing worse than, in the end, watching a Freddy Kruegar movie. If you can't handle my silly emotes, then you likely can't handle the texts for a cleave or a brilliance, either, and I have to wonder how you manage to play Avalon at all.

This is probably not the best thread for this discussion - but since Proteus raised the issue of what's acceptable and what isn't, let me respond. People have personal responses regarding what they deem acceptable and other players need to be aware of that when they impose what you call 'inflicted RP' - even emotes that you deem 'silly' or 'harmless' might not seem like that to others. And just because you, rather sadly, let yourself be subjected yourself to a demeaning and shocking situation does not mean you should dismiss others' experiences and reactions, however trite they may seem to you.

     But my point was not directed at you (I don't find your conduct troublesome at all): it has more general application. RP entails a kind of dual personality - that of the character and that of the player. It's perfectly possible, even normal, to place a character in a stressful situation that the player nonetheless finds interesting and enjoys experienceing and dealing with. It is, however, also possible that you can place the character in a stressful situation which the player does not enjoy, and which s/he may even find distressing, or simply boring, to have inflicted on them. The latter should be avoided, unless you want to start haemorrhaging players. That's why you need to consider the effect RP actions have on people's RL experience of the game.

Again, as has been made clear - it's always, in the end, just a game. It may seem intense and important and consuming, but people need to know where the line is and when to step out...  If you can't handle my silly emotes, then you likely can't handle the texts for a cleave or a brilliance, either, and I have to wonder how you manage to play Avalon at all.

I have no problem with your emotes or the attack texts - the latter are an inherent part of the game and the former enliven it. My concern is with how people's RP behaviour, which affects the RP environment through their personal choice, negatively affect the playing experience of other players and with the failure or refusal of players to consider this. Your rather disspiriting message seems to be that if someone doesn't like the way Avalon has been made by the players (because one of the strengths and weaknesses of Avalon is that the players' conduct defines the character of the land), then they should just unsubscribe. Since asking people to roleplay responsibly and to consider that their actions might spoil the game for others seems to be wasted words, you may well be right. I would suggest, however, for those who wish to remain in Avalon, that more sensitivity is required - unless you want the land to be populated solely by 30 old lags bashing each other and wondering where everyone has gone.

[Narissa]

On the contrary, I'm agreeing that people need to be able to say "This isn't cool from the player PoV" and the other side needs to be able to say "That's fine, I understand." This takes a bit of distance and maturity from both sides. However, Avalon is notorious for blurring IC and OOC, partially because there is so little RP, and no tradition of character vs player. People insult you OOC if you kill them, MSN is rife and rampant, and quite often you can find a chat room type vibe going on.

My point is that we should not inflict RP on people and force them to unsub (that's a bit silly), but rather people should work on creating a character and seeing the world through the eyes of that pretend person, instead of through their own perspective, which will both make RP easier to happen and allow people to take it more in stride.

Granted, this is a viewpoint several years of playing has given me. Playing long enough helps remind you that it is just a game, and that you aren't as invested in your character as it may seem. Perhaps if elders were stronger with the examples (ie, only conduct OOC talk via tells and messages, etc), kids would find this transition easier. It's MUCH easier to sit back and view things through your character's eyes if you don't have people seeing YOU as linked to your character - the rampant chatting and OOC ensures that link is strong.

My comment about how someone manages to play Avalon at all - I quite honestly mean that. If an emote about a knife slicing a chest open is as sickening as Catlania and Fatalus and so forth claim, they must get nauseated when they fight a mage and die to this text: "Your chest cavity is ripped open by the power of the blast." (or however it's phrased)

Now, they clearly don't want to vomit every time they spar, which is what I was indicating - ie, they are just using these whines about how terrible the RP is as an excuse to attack the people doing the RP. A lame reaction, and a completely OOC one - trying to get Narissa in trouble via messages, whines to gods, and posts on the elders about how I do bad, sickening, destructive RP is a completely OOC reaction to a very IC situation. The reaction was, in the end, solely to my character and her evilness, not any legitimate rant about anything beyond that - ie to IC things. Next time, they should try holding a ceremony to purify him or some religious gathering to annoint fighters in Thakrian blood to give them divine power in their hunt against the corrupt princess or whatever...

I'd just like to point out, in the end, a boring RP session leaves you...bored. An abusive one will quickly get the gods on your ass and you'll likely end up a statue in the Underworld. However, a fighting rampage, or a stripping session against some tiny people - that's where we've not got moderation and maturity. RP just isn't common enough to have abuses going on with it, unlike the unmonitored fighting scene that is usually the cause of people quitting the land.

[Danton]

Thank you for the clarification, Narissa, and for the insightful and encouraging perspective of a consummate roleplayer. I fully agree with you that the unmonitored fighting and all that goes with it is what makes the game most tiresome. While players such as yourself have the good sense to appreciate when they are harming rather than enhancing another player's experience of the game and to exercise some self-restraint accordingly, others do not. It's a pity that nobody seems willing to do anything about this.

         I'm not sure that more full-on roleplaying would help improve matters though. Granted, OOC insults for having a character killed are foolish. But all of the kinds of abuses you allude to under the 'unmonitored fighting' heading can be justified in in-game terms. Targetting a player or players for repeated slayings, slaughtering them every time they set foot outside a temple or come off DP, or the types of harrassment that Algernon mentioned above - all these can be justified as weakening a city's defenders, breaking their morale, punishing them for changing city or some other real or perceived offence, or simply as a legitimate way of gaining XP for the perpetrator. And if you are being slain every time you try to visit a shop and you have your health reduced to teeny level by repeated victimisations, your playing experience is going to be seriously and adversely affected regardless of how detached you are from your character. Whether it's IC roleplay or OOC meanness, people's experience of playing the game is still going to be affected by the in-game actions of other characters and when people don't take account of this, the gaming experience of the person on the receiving end will suffer.

      But even though it's the more petty harrassment and bullying that's the main problem, the log that started all this and the varied reactions to it make for a fine test case, since it is a very well put-together and eerie in-game scenario which some players enjoy but others find disturbing. (You may be right, Narissa, that some of the objections are just people having a go, but I think, while on its own the knife in the chest is nothing, the context and setting is what makes it disturbing - the black arts ritual, the deception involved, the overpowering of a small character by several much larger characters, the powerlessness of the victim to resist - these are very creepy and I think many of the objections are actually testimony to how well-crafted it was.) That varied response highlights the need for people to consider how their in-game conduct might impact not just on the character but also on the player on the receiving end of it. I think it worked in that instance (I don't know what Liam's OOC reaction was, but it seems like you were taking due care in the scenario). But the same scenario could easily have a very negative effect on someone else - and even if the objectors might seem over-sensitive to you, it's necessary to bear their sensitivities in mind, because it's people's subjective experience of playing the game that wil decide whether they continue to play or leave. The log shows what's possible with good roleplay, but it also shows that even the best roleplay needs to be done with care. And if that's true of the best roleplay, then it's more true of the dumb harrassment and victimation that some people indulge in as a substitute.

[Narissa]

Fair enough, but I do want to try to get Avalon going towards things we've not really done in the past - ie playing pretend simply for the joy of it, rather than claiming RP to justify something that's really greed or OOC shining through. In this case, the RP did have the political secondary consequence of reinforcing the Order of Vengeance, however, I think that's a case where RP is the best and strongest option, rather than inorganic contests and such.

On the whole, though, RP gets a bad rap because of people abusing power, harassing kids and then claiming "oh it's in my RP to be an ass to newbies who just subbed 2 hours ago" or "yeah, my character believes in anhiliating people down to 120 health, simply because they can." That's a different problem, one I think the finger of blame lies on the gods to fix...

I will just say, though, that I absolutely enforce the idea of RP being consensual. Nobody should be forced to endure things they don't want - that's why we've got suicide, tells and whatnot. However, DO please give things a chance, before screaming for a team, unless the PERSON is getting wigged out (ie, you are freaked out RL).

Note: not all of us who CAN, will actually DO. Yes, I rank up there with the fighters, but I'd much rather a random verbal debate and emote-ridden situation to sort something out, over the usual "rantrantrantteam" scenario. I really do think a touch of imagination can create far more unique, intelligent and satisfactory situations. When you've been kicking around at the top for a bit, this is what makes it interesting to log in.

[Elmak]

I've had to remove these past few posts on the negativity and outright derogatory behavior. I'd like to keep things civil here. I'd like not to have to step in to moderate again.

[Solan]

Since I'm just now finding myself whoring various forums, I just now had the chance to ready this log and the responses therein.  I know this is long past the time of occurance, but I just wanted to say...

Holy fucking shit Narissa!  THAT was a sexy read, and I absolutely loved every line of it.  Is it because I'm a sadistic bastard both in game and out?  Probably.  So I say to hell with the nay-sayers and those too weak to stomach such an event.  Creativity and originality like this is EXACTLY what a place like Avalon needs more of.  Bravo to you and all involved.  Too bad for little Liam if he couldn't take a little bit of RP.

[Narissa]

Many thanks At the time it was my first real foray into the roleplay realm (more PK-whore/city admin type before), so some of it may be a bit heavy-handed. I think there are a good-sized handful of us working to really get some intelligent character development and such going, and so far it seems to be catching on well - which, eventually, will make the whiners not even consider whining, because (the goal is) that kind of metagaming crap will be a bit shameful and stupid to do.

That's the ideal anyways.

Liam came back, too, saying he had fun, he just had to move house RL.

[Narissa]

oh, regarding the RP "maturing" check out the Weird Science log, maybe (http://legendsofavalon.net/index.php/topic,198.0.html) - creepier, I think, if only for the callousness of it. And some good verbage about exposed organs.