Food for thought!

[Rajj]

Before you read the following, please remember Springdale and Thakria are at war.

1.
Prince of Springdale: Orinoko
Patron of Thakria: Loki

Orinoko is a member of Loki's order.

Any thoughts?

2.
Baron of Springdale: Allys
Prince of Thakria: Salvador

Friends, bashing, helping remove runes...etc...

Any thoughts?

Alot of the people involved or friends of the involved talk about roleplay, but let's be honest, there really is none of that going on.

All good food for thought!

[Furion]

Hmm, interesting concept, Rajj.

I must admit that I've thought it was a bit strange at times, but now that I'm in an Order with a lot of Thakria city enemies I personally believe that personal patrons have nothing to do with city business.

I've spoken and interacted with Finwe, Siranae and Max in a friendly manner and heck, I even went bashing with Finwe once, but I don't think it was breaking character.

I think it is entirely possible to be friends and get along with city enemies, as long as you know where your loyalties lie when city defence and warfare roll around.

[Allys]

Here's some food for thought:
 
Necromancers, a guild of darkness and demons
and
Mercinae, the city of light, truth and justice.
 
Any thoughts on that one?
 

[Narissa]

QFT Allys. Besides, I'm Princess, Rajj. Get with the program.

[Rajj]

QFT Allys. Besides, I'm Princess, Rajj. Get with the program.

Pfft, when did that happen? I should keep up with the news... 

Furion,  You are absolutely right, it all has to do with loyalties and which order you put them.
Hopefully people don't change them at their whim when it best suits them.

Allys,

Just for your information, we are in the process of changing our ideals and have been for awhile. Since I've taken over it's been getting closer. We are trying to go for spirits guiding us instead of controlling demons. Since you are old, you know how long things take to change in Avalon.

[Allys]

Since you are old, you know how long things take to change in Avalon.

Sure I do. Its just like the Druids were supposed to have different skills to the animists. Look how great that one turned out.
 
 
You can't base the current situation off what you want it to be, or what you might think it will be- Only how it IS.

[Adaryn]

I think those that claim that their patron's personal attentions and their patron's city ties are different and completely unrelated are just looking for a way to assuage their guilty consciences about the apparent conflict of interest that's there. Personally, I find it quite hypocritical that, say, orinoko can come in, kill me, then offer me to my own city's divine protector and that be considered 'okay' or 'acceptable', and so far the best reason I've heard to explain such backwards logic amounted to 'Just because', or someone quoting the gods' general help file at me.

[Octafino]

I think that killing the citizens of a patron's city does not warrant extreme punishment, if any, from the deity. Now, say Orinoko starts to use Loki's temple in Thakria as a place to run, really begins to mess with the city in a deeper way than spilling a bit of blood, perhaps it would be something that the patron would devote some attention towards. Maybe not by directly attacking Orinoko but by acting "mildly" against him in guiding someone to his weak points or even retaliating against his city. However, providing loads of essence for a patron can go a long way I'd imagine. I don't know which bond would be stronger with that point.

[Salvador]

I agree that a personal choice of patronage really has nothing to do with city business really. Any conflict of interest that might come about, I'd argue would be purely personal. Being in a small order, my only fellow War follower is Allys, just like Narissa and Furion have city enemies in their orders.

I think it really depends on how we behave rather than the situation in and of itself, I'd say that any conflict of interest or whatnot comes only if we make it so.

Also, I'd just like to say that Allys very rarely does any of those things mentioned, and in my opinion anyone helping anyone else in their order is perfectly justified to do so.

[Rajj]

Also, I'd just like to say that Allys very rarely does any of those things mentioned, and in my opinion anyone helping anyone else in their order is perfectly justified to do so.

My problem with that is this.
Let's say Allys helps you, an ordermate, by filling your potions. You then rampage through Springdale killing Springdalians and keeping yourself alive using those potions. I think then, it brings a huge problem to the city seeing as she is a Baron.

But like Furion said, its all about where loyalties lie. And like Adaryn said, lot of hypocrits using said loyalties as they see fit.

[Aphaia]

This is a very interesting question.

I think there is always a potential conflict of interest betwen patron and city, if the two do not co-incide.

I also think you are entitled to know how any city mate will handle that conflict, which loyalty is the stronger, what their patron's views are on killing another order mate, for instance. You can then make a decision as to what extent you can trust them to behave in ways that you find acceptable.

Allys will no doubt respond for herself, but I know she has worked out what she will and will not do for a city enemy who is also an order-mate, and her decisions satisfied me.

I will set out here what my own priorities are so that it is openly on record. My loyalty is to patron, city, guild, in that order.

However, I understand that my Lord Proteus would not object to me killing an order-mate if they were to attack my city. He also does not require me to break my Guild's ban on servicing thieves, despite having a leading thief in a high position in our order.

So, although my patron comes first, in practical terms it makes no difference at present to anything that I do as a Springdalian or a Craftmaster.

I have not discussed killing Parrians with him, as my fighting is still at the stage of trying not to get killed myself rather than aggression towards anyone else!

What will happen in times of war I do not yet know.

[Elmak]

This is why it's best just to not have a city. Then you don't have these silly conflicts! My priorities are very straightforward and don't waver!

[Narissa]

48/49:ORDER OF CORNELIUS SECTION
BB>
Message #49.
Date: 12-12-2008 at 23:23.
From: Miracle Mistress Narissa, Queen of Shadows [a believer].
To  : Lady Siranae du Bourdeaux, Muse of Magic.
Subj: welcome.

Yes...err...welcome. Pardon if I don't break out the fireworks and champers, yet. I have enough faith
in my Lord that I trust his judgment in this, but not enough in you that I won't slit your throat
when I see you.


Let's hope you quickly advance so this won't be as amusedly easy as it currently is, hmm?

Written by my hand on the 15th of Agamnion, in the year 1224.

Not all of us snuggle our Ordermates. More like...tolerate them. Maybe. Sometime.

[Sabrelon]

Not all of us snuggle our Ordermates. More like...tolerate them. Maybe. Sometime.

Heh, that's to say the least. I'm currently the Only thakrian in the Order of Mischief, and, i'd say i just Tolerate the other members of my order.
 
Hell i have Vargo in my order, and we surely didn't stand around Buddy buddy all the time...most of it was attempting to kill eachother..actually

[Allys]

Let's say Allys helps you, an ordermate, by filling your potions. You then rampage through Springdale killing Springdalians and keeping yourself alive using those potions. I think then, it brings a huge problem to the city seeing as she is a Baron.

 
Have I filled for him when he's spent time working with me on fighting and settings? Sure I have. When he comes into SD and starts attacking people, do I just stand there and let him? No, but he and I are both clear on the fact that if one of us goes into the other's city with malintent, that the other will be forced to strike against the other. So, I find your attempt at a point here invalid.
 
Other than that bit, I don't see the point in explaining myself publicly. My loyalities have no bearing on the other cities, and frankly, are none of your damn business.  The citizens of Springdale, and my guildmates, certainly have the right to inquire and question those, but that's something that I'd address with them personally, and not on some public forum.