New changes, old balance?

[Narissa]

Right, I'm sure I'm not the only one who's getting a bit frustrated with this.

I am very happy that Genesis is in an "into" Avalon phase again - when he's into stuff, we get tons of new, very creative (far moreso than any other game I've played) additions, usually quite quickly.

The downside to this is, of course, that it seems little testing goes in before implementation (which leads to the inevitable "Genesis, the god of Time tells you, "Busy?" - night wasted playtesting), despite the fact that there IS a test server. Genesis much prefers realtime work - which, while I can understand, god, if there was some middle ground - test it on people in NEAR real situations, but not while our xp/possessions/city security is at stake...

I am not even exaggerating here. I know for a fact that every city is leeching gold due to an untrapped bug squirming around in the economic system, introduced by the changes to how the overall gold levels (and more specifically the "general fund") is managed. Oddly, Thakria seems to be the only ones to either track their gold over time, or have the balls to point it out. We get 60k coin every RL week or so - how much has YOUR city lost? You shouldn't have to watch for this kind of stuff....but you do, and if you are a silly naive person who simply assumes that logical rules and trends will continue to be logical...your loss, I guess!

Same thing with the dragon. We track comm levels, and several times we'd needed a few DOZEN of things like leather restored to us. Just little things like this which tend to not be noticed except by the OCDs  but which really shouldn't be something we have to deal with (dragon has been around for how many RL months now?)

Ok, so yes, there is that set of issues. /rant

Second, and a more intricate, deeper issue is that a lot of these changes are being put in without little thought to their effect on the overall balance of things. Avalon has an AMAZING system, with a deceptively simple (in appearance) combat system which is mastered not by simply memorizing far too many afflictions, but by really learning how to gauge cost and effect. I've not seen any game match that type of intellectual, intuitive, yet still vastly challenging system. It's really impressive.

However..."little" changes easily throw that balance out of whack. One example? Hook runes. Lorerobe melting used to be a useful escape skill, but one which screwed the loremaster for a few minutes afterwards - ie, you could get out, but you'd essentially be opting yourself out of the team fight/warfare situation/whatever until either the team cleared out, you qq/reconnected, or you did a suicide run for the robes. Now, you can melt and trigger it to hook - only "discomfort" is the minimal amount of time caused by latency to your connection to Avalon.

Let's see, another...Meals. Cost, time and annoyance aside, the effect on combat is a rough one - all of a sudden %-based damage professions have a HUGE leg up. With full well-being, people are walking around with 200 or more extra health - while fixed damage skills stay the same (stab and throttle I have since got upped, since this is absurd, but even with the increase in damage - ONLY 50 at ult plus - we're still out in the long run). Think about it. Before, I was fighting someone with 1270 health (pretty average amount). Stab did around 370. So, 4ish stabs to kill, if I have them locked. Now, that same person has over 1430 health. That's another stab - another 6 seconds. On the flip side, jj suddenly does MORE damage, while health potions still cure for the same amount. This change was very clearly not thought out in terms of overall balance - and I expect we'll see more tweaking, but only based on how much energy I have to write up emails detailing it all nicely.

Anyways, I could go on, but I'll end it for now. Half rant, but also half a litmus - are you guys on the same page with me regarding the new changes? If so, which ones do you think have really caused more bad than good? Ideally, I can comb through this thread later and pull out good points for when I write up an email to Genesis (I do these every few months, the joy of being in leadership  ).

[Trakea]

Yes, that's all well and good about percentage attacks, but it's not like I can get 2,500 health or anything.....

[Narissa]

*growl*

[Salvador]

Apologies if this has already been kinda covered, but what's wrong with making stab percentage based? I don't see anyone losing out, the only differences being people with low health don't die in 2 hits, and conversely it doesn't take 20 to kill someone on high health. In either of those cases it's unfair on someone, surely % based would make it more balance all round?

[Narissa]

I don't mind it fixed damage - it helps with the cost/benefit overall balance of the land. For example, I don't like my health higher than 1400ish, since health sip doesn't get higher, but jj damage does, whereas I don't like it below 1200, since stab/throttle/brilliance/blackhand hurt too much. It makes things more intricate and delicate in terms of weighing all the potential benefits and downsides of a choice.

However, I think meals have pretty clearly thrown things out of whack. Flat damage-based killers completely pwn against low health people, while they tickle at those with the high health. My suggestion was two options: Adjust health potion so it heals based on a flat number then with an extra amount based on you level, OR, something like that with flat-damage attacks, with an extra damage modifier based on health level of the target, so it wouldn't be strictly %-based, but health level would be taken slightly into account, while still keeping a base amount (which I'd lower from the current somewhat-upped amount).

I've always been rather fond of the distinction in types of damage, since it makes for a more interesting overall tactical approach. I wouldn't want that lost entirely, since that would make high health completely useless - the ideal health would be around 600-800, since jjs do about half the amount of a health potion at that level.

[Solan]

Wait....blackhand is a fixed amount of damage now?  I could swear that it used to be % based...

[Salvador]

Blackhand maximum damage is % based, i'm 99.9% sure.

As far as I recall it's 40%, which is loads or not much depending on level xD.

I agree with Narissa so far as there being no point to fixed damage if everything was % based, but it's always gonna cause a problem somewhere along the line. I like your healthpotion ideas though.

[Elmak]

I don't like my health higher than 1400ish, since health sip doesn't get higher, but jj damage does, whereas I don't like it below 1200, since stab/throttle/brilliance/blackhand hurt too much.

This is why I hate having bear health that is above 2120! I don't want the high health. I agree with you that Meals is throwing the balance of damage a little out-of-whack; of course, we could always bring back the Vassals system...

[Narissa]

Blackhand I wasn't certain on, as I see such variable numbers, depending on the (in)competence of the sorc using it. It's definitely not 40% though, unless you mean 40% with resist 0, athanzar, no talisman, plus all the boosts.
 
Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, there was talk (granted, it was from Fist, so who knows if it was hot air or legit) that brilliance was changed to %-based. Some testing could easily verify that.
 
That leaves, what, handburn and image pierce and far hurl as the only flat damage skills? Hell, I haven't used handburn in so long, I can't remember - it might be %-based too.
 
Clearly, Thieves, with our domination on the fixed-damage market, are meant to be the clean-up crews and newbie assassins. :/

[Salvador]

Image pierce is % based too It's 20%. Farhurl is fixed, but NERFED after Dunccanlindule didn't appreciate the brazier killing him in one go, so it will no longer do as much as 600, or didn't when I left the profession, anyway. My cry is 40%, blackhand is 40% too, I think brilliance LIKELY is % based, but have never tested, and even if so, it's a crazy low %.

[Narissa]

Oh wait, there is also the deadly fastpunch with a standard 50 hit. Granted, I'm probably the only dork who goes around killing people with it, so I'll claim the skill for my profession...

[Elmak]

Now now, Thieves aren't the only ones! Rangers have stab and claw/bite- both are fixed damage. Technically we have slings too, but that does a whole 20 damage. (more if you use kly!)

[Narissa]

You can null/jab through.

[Salvador]

Hah @ fastpunch. Also, you have yank to get out of pent!

[Elmak]

You can null/jab through.

Also, you have yank to get out of pent!

Exactly!