DDW, PW, Protection, Hiding and Training

[Narissa]

Any argument can be made to sound absurd if you quote single lines out of context. If you'd cite more full lines, you'd see that what most of us are saying has nothing to do with "I can't randomly attack people all the time" - instead the issues being raised about DDW and whatnot are more regarding its secondary impacts, such as on kids being trained, roleplay consequences, etc.


Bowdyn, excellent post. Let's keep the posts about the issues, not the people, and not try to anonymously pick things apart just to be contentious. By all means, everyone is welcome to disagree - but these are OOC forums, not an extension of our characters - so please bear that in mind.

[Narissa]

Over the last month or so, however, things seem to have shifted noticeably - while I am not qualified to discuss the relative merits of ddw, protection etc., surely it would be a pity for the game to narrow down completely to cities and individuals locked in eternal conflict?

Missed this in the earlier post. One thing that makes Avalon so great in my eyes isn't just a good combat system, but the idea of conflict and action/consequence. Sure, sometimes we just fight for the hell of it - but lots of times there are reasons for the fighting beyond ego or dominance: SOI skirmishes, enlistable men, commodity squabbles, ideological battles, etc. There is always the option to have death and killing MEAN more than just combat prowess.

Eternal conflict? Where is the issue with this? Without conflict - be it for power, resources, novices, commodities, etc - we'd be quite stagnant. Conflict is what drives recruitment of citizens. Conflict is what provides pressing reasons and needs for commodity work! Without competition, things lose necessity, edge and excitement.

[Furion]

"As opposed to when it suits you?"

Just thought I'd say that I resent that comment, because 9 times out of 10, I'm the person being attacked/jumped, not the one jumping. Perhaps in the future you would care to research things a little before being so quick to judge.

[Rajj]

Having just read this entire thread finally, I'd like to provide my insight.  I think we're missing an important point.

When did DP become so unacceptable? 

During my youth, I had my legendary bully moments.  Sometimes these lasted days during which I'd ship 5 or 6 or 10 times.  But when I grew weary, I stayed DP for a few days and regathered my strength.  Some people need more time to recover, I understand this.  I even understand that there are some true pacifists in Avalon, those that really detest death.  But honestly, there are very rare circumstances that DP doesn't cover (buying animals, resurrecting, and bashing). 

Specific to DDW/PW, what we fighters detest is that Avalon is slowly creating more and more options for cowards to talk big, be offensive, ruin roleplay, all without consequences.  None of us sit around angry about Mestopholies being PW, or someone like Algernon being DDW, because they actually play the role and seem to have a purpose.  But, we can not handle the Rynn's, Rajj's, and other assorted OOC players that insult people's RL pictures or jobs, generally ruin the game, and leave no room for the people that genuinely seek recourse to obtain it.

Hopefully that wasn't too much of a rant, but it's something I feel completely detrimental to the land, and an unnecessery addition.

Whoa whoa whoa...
When did I ever insult someone OOC? or become an OOC player? The only time I became involved in OOC comments inside Avalon was when Parallax insulted a picture of Caelred and I challenged him as an Animist.

Rajj played his role to a T, initiated by himself and his Patron, and approved/accepted by many dieties.
It was a diffucult role, Justice and Animists, but I was told I pulled it off quite well, by the people who mattered. Besides Narissa and Zilveren, remember this truthful statement, "I never initiated any offensive movement without first being attacked by another player".

You must have some bogus bullshit information... Which is what most people do have about me. Especially OOC. I would never do anything to harm anyone OOC, very friendly person to be honest. I think everyone I've ever met at a meet (3 total) would vouch for that.

But as Avalon is, and always will be, a perception of each individual by another. Not always a true perception.

[Rynn]

I knew it was only a matter of time before my name came up in this thread. ROFL

[Every Seer in Avalon]

Your post sounds just like your rants in avalon, Rajj. Remember Viktar, anyone? I sure as hell do. The little sonofabitch would attack pretty much anyone while he was still a lw. Generally he was swatted away, but if anyone actually killed him for it... I'm sure I wasn't the only one treated to all the moaning Rajj dished up about killing his second. Of course, he labled the motive for this as being "because he is rajj", not because Viktar was asking for it.

I said this before. Endlessly boasting about your roleplaying skills and how you apply them doesn't make for a good 'in role' setting. It seems like half that time I interacted with you, that is all you did.

Ahem. Yes, I do consider it my solemn duty to call shennanigans when it's painfully needed.

Oh, and I hope all you ddw-pw-protected-animist types enjoy your chat room. I hear you can plant pinecones in it now. Imagine that!

----
Edited to mention that yes, I know this isn't about seconds. The above is an example of Rajj's typical method of third-person roleplay.

[Rajj]

Your post sounds just like your rants in avalon, Rajj. Remember Viktar, anyone? I sure as hell do. The little sonofabitch would attack pretty much anyone while he was still a lw. Generally he was swatted away, but if anyone actually killed him for it... I'm sure I wasn't the only one treated to all the moaning Rajj dished up about killing his second. Of course, he labled the motive for this as being "because he is rajj", not because Viktar was asking for it.

I said this before. Endlessly boasting about your roleplaying skills and how you apply them doesn't make for a good 'in role' setting. It seems like half that time I interacted with you, that is all you did.

Ahem. Yes, I do consider it my solemn duty to call shennanigans when it's painfully needed.

Oh, and I hope all you ddw-pw-protected-animist types enjoy your chat room. I hear you can plant pinecones in it now. Imagine that!

----
Edited to mention that yes, I know this isn't about seconds. The above is an example of Rajj's typical method of third-person roleplay.

Eh?

You truly do make up shit don't you Esprii? Viktar constantly defended Mercinaens, when they were attacked IN THE CITY, and I never cared how small I was or how big they were. I died lots and I killed some. The only time VIKTAR complained (Notice not Rajj) was when people would kill Viktar because they knew I was Rajj, and THAT has nothing to do with roles... And they would do it, bypassing Bloodlust. Eventually it got to a point where you all couldnt distinguish the two and I called it quits.  That is the ONLY time I complained.  Another thing I NEVER did, until the day I unsubbed was interact with Rajj and Viktar together... NEVER... I didn't share items, money, secrets. I played each as a completely separate entity.

And please read the post by Trakea again, I did not BOAST my roleplay, it was brought up by Trakea, and I decided to defend myself... That is all. You constantly try to turn these things into so much more difficult discussions to suit your fabricated stories better.

And honestly, if you call it OUR chat room, and you no longer play, why post?

[Every Seer in Avalon]

Because I need something to fill the void, Darlin. 

[Rajj]

Honey, the void that Nostradamus left with you will never be filled.

Surely there are better things to do then come in here and make up shit?

[Kresslack]

DDW: IMO, not completly useless, but not far from it. It provides a service to new players, or those returning from a long absence, but in essence, any player new or returning that has it in their mind to be any sort of decent fighter will not put themselvees under protection of any means. It's the people that are loudmouths and take DDW then talk about what great fighters they are, or what all they will do to someone, that agrivate me. Knowing that they are protected, to an extent at least(there are plenty of ways to kill ddw;s), seem to get overly pompous and full of themselves. Another thing of similer sorts are the few pw's and animists you come across that take the protection, then instigate people.

This point has been brought up I've seen, people take ddw status only to be lazy, and not have to be troubled by the worries of havocical war. Such a notion I find a bit absurd. Who ever in any life had such protection? Life isn't meant to be easy, it's meant to be diffcult and full of hard journies, that in turn make you as hard as the world that were raised in. A lot of the Avalon populace is growing overly sheltered in this new age, in my opinion.

[Narissa]

Here is a question that has always puzzled me: Pacifists....why?

I personally can do everything pacifists can do, and I -do- enjoy farming and labours - but having no threat seems to make it not worth anything, surely? Wouldn't DP be a better option, since you can always pitch in more dangerously when it's really needed...? Isn't it boring? What brings the excitement, since there is no threat or danger?

I'm not attacking, I honestly just am curious.

[Rakira]

I'll answer that one, a bit. I was only a pacifist for a few Avalon years though. I chose it mainly because my system was crashing and I was rewriting it from scratch and I was trapped on Javalon a while too, but there were in game reasons! Sometimes, one does need a break from dying again and again and again. As for the excitement of it...there are some fun pacifist things! They have the questleague, which is fun, a bit of healthy competition with a reward of 50 lessons, which is definitely a worth while prize. That's what I found fun about Pacifism, at least.

[Narissa]

Heh I made a newbie, and made him PW, and topped questleague in his first (and only) year as a pacifist. It lost the fun then

[Jashiri]

This is an old topic, but I’m glad to answer from an OOC perspective.

To compare all pacifists to a select few is ridiculous. In real life, I’m Puerto Rican, but I’m not particularly fond of beans and rice.

Grundy and Cinaed both became gods, and while one would expect all to have the ambition to someday become a God, not everyone can, and not all gods achieve their godhood by following the same path. So, to say, “Why don’t all pacifists do what Grundy did? He was a pacifist, and he didn’t live under the shroud of Aldaron.” Well, the fact is, from time to time, Grundy did wear the shroud of Aldaron. And while in a sense Grundy was a pacifist, he also took trips to the underworld to learn how to fight, and set up deadly staves in his guild. That, of course, is his choice, but all pacifists have differing opinions on what pacifism means to them, and we shouldn’t be required to live as Grundy did just because it worked for him.

Similarly, Alex and Mesto have had centuries to build up a persona, learn the ins and outs, and find what works for them. Mesto and Alex have both at one time or another been full on, shroud wearing pacifists, and ignoring that fact just to make a point on how they live today is silly.

Why not DP?

Because DP limits skills more than PW does, and makes labours and farming tasks take far, far longer, and DP implies that you are able to fight and that you will drop it at a moments notice and be a worthwhile member of a fighting team, when in fact you just might be a pacifist under divine protection and aren’t worth squat in a fight. I’ve noticed, after trying the whole unprotected pacifist business, that far fewer questions are asked if you just choose pacifism. And pacifism is a role playing choice, not just a protective one.

Now to be OOC.

There are external reasons for being a pacifist as well. For example, if I get into a crash and break both my hands and then have to type with a stick, I am not going to pretend to be a fighter, nor am I going to quit a game and world I’ve become fond of being a part of. So, this external reason effects my IC choice, and on the same side of the coin, my IC choice effects how my character will act. If I become a pacifist for an external reason, I’m not going to continue frothing at the mouth and saying how bad people suck and that they should die. Consider real life, too. Your genetics are an external force you have no control of, but inform how you act in your day to day life. Some people who play have permanent disabilities, and want the opportunity to be a part of the land, even if they have to role play a pacifist to do it.

Also, the mind of the player very much informs how a character is going to act, no matter what they would like to be. I’ve known people who wanted to be the next Narissa, and were perfectly able RL, but just couldn’t mentally get to the place they needed to be to become a good fighter, even after hours and hours, months and months of trying. There is definitely an attitude, a mindset, and a certain knowhow to become a fighter that not everyone has. So why not let these gentler people have a place as well? Why not let them develop a character where they can be a part of the conflict, but in a more political or economic arena? In real life, most of us fulfill just such a role, and while we can be attacked as a consequence to our transgressions, that is most often not the result of our misconduct, and in Avalon, role playing such finer details are seldom done.

[Narissa]

I'm fairly certain that pacifism didn't exist back then (I could have the time frame wrong), so it would have not even have been an option for the legendary non-coms like Grundy. Pacifism was a rather late addition to the game.

From a roleplay perspective, it's pretty damn annoying. I play a badass fighter who can slaughter most people without mussing up her hair - and I actually can back that up with the ability to. Then we have pacifists, who can sit and insult and talk shit, and nobody can do anything back - completely shooting down the RP of every single fighter. We can't do things like threaten or posture (see the Algernon logs for examples), because we can't even touch them. It's like being given a free pass to cut in line - PWs can just flounce about and ignore any sense of choice/consequence, pecking order, threat, etc, which seems like pretty damn poor RP to me. It ignores half the land in some artificial protection.

I think people perhaps overuse the "I just want to have fun" excuse. Avalon is a MUD - MULTI user dungeon. If you don't like the consequences of playing with other people (you know, that thing called conflict), there are plenty of options out there for just as rich an experience, but without nasty other people to deal with. I think the threat of us fighters on non-coms is completely exaggerated: if you aren't fighting and aren't shooting off your mouth, you're pretty much off the radar.