DDW, PW, Protection, Hiding and Training

[Algernon]

So, yeah, Merc, go fix them?

I'll spread the word if I can have few minutes to talk to the apprentices without getting jumped.  (Which just happened.) 

[Ender]

What you don't need to learn to fight:

You don't need to have the ability to touch type.
You don't need knowledge of zmud.
You don't need special macros or ANY triggers.
You don't need a mentor (but it does help).
You don't need all ults or even one ult (they are only a disadvantage to learning)
You don't need to play 50+ hour weeks (but it helps).


What you do need to learn to fight:

You do need the desire and will to learn above all other things.
You do need a sensible and small income (regular gold runs is enough).
You do need a friendly and active loremaster willing to reequip you.
You do need access to xp (someone willing to lead bashes for example).
And most important, you do need to realize it will take about 6-12 months of dedication.


I'll follow with the story of how I learned to fight...  it might be interesting to someone.

[Ender]

I created Ender in 1994 and spent the next 4 years completely failing to learn to fight.  I started as Thief in a time before the sewers were secure then quickly changed to a Ranger just before they implemented the treetops and the security they gave us.  I quickly gained a stupid number of ultimates and completely no idea how to use them, I was as most people are at some point, convinced that my salvation would come with the next ult.

I took a break for a couple of years and returned determined that this time, I would do everything right, I would learn to fight!  With my elder brother in real-life a successful fighter and ex-prince of Mercinae, I had access to all the information I  need and a lot of cool macros.  I had intelligent semi-automatic curing systems, speed-routes, a complete list of skills for all professions, every known cure to every known affliction.  This time, it would be different!  I also knew that part of my problem was having too many skills as Ender, so I created the slightly meaner and nastier (yeah - remember Ender was still cute) Demosthenes.  So what did I do?  Exactly the same as Ender, but this time I was crippled by TOO MUCH knowledge.  Once again, I got skills too quickly, I focused too much on macros and automation, too much focus on the technicalities of fighting, too much knowledge.  Al the gear and no idea.

So I quit again.  A few years later I returned and this time I finally learned how to fight. 

I knew what failed me as Ender was safety and too many skills.  I knew what screwed me as Demosthenes was also safety (sewers), too many non-fighting options (thievery) and too much focus on technicalities (triggers and macros).  So I created Kurgan, and the first step was to create his personality - he had to be a nutter.

Kurgan was a Cavalier and he had a couple of rules, firstly:  Never fight outside of Thakria (unless in a mutual challenge).  To clarify, if I attack a city enemy inside of Thakria and they run out of they gate, I would stop, waiting by the gate, they could be one location away and I would not attack - I never chased them outside of the city.  I played this character for about 18 months and in that time I never once broke that rule.  Secondly, he would attack ANY city enemy who entered Thakria and refused to leave (I always asked first), irrespective of their size.  I fought all day, when I wasn't fighting I was leading bashes with the orcs to regain lost XP, then in the evening I would fight endless mutual challenges - most of which I lost.  In 18 months I never, I mean NEVER refused a challenge.  If an enemy entered Thakria I would often issue a challenge - mostly they would accept.

Here is the interesting thing:  enemies started to treat me very differently to everyone else.  They would mostly accept challenges.  They would also ask me if I fancied a challenge before they attacked me - and if the time was bad for me they would accept that we could do it later.  My enemies would give me tips and ideas for how to improve - if I disconnected and they notice they would stop attacking.  These are people like Dunccan, Orinoko, Krill, Blueskull and many others.  Generally speaking, I was given the space and respect I needed to continue to learn to fight.

After about 12 months - I was above average.  After 18 months I was in the top ten active players.  That was playing roughly 50 hour weeks and ONLY FOCUSING ON FIGHTING.

Now, I could give you tips as Narissa said about health, about colour triggers (the only ones I had), about learning the land or about the countless other things involved in learning to fight... but really - they FIRST thing you must do to learn to fight is make sure that you, and your character, are mentally prepared for what it takes.

If you are, it's really not all that hard.

[India]

 

That rule only applies if your health *ever* gets  over 1000?

Mine reads:

1020 - cool double figures! might need to remember to eat more
970-820 - Ha, well its worth trying to fight back this time im jumped
770-570 - oh well, another ship ride then
520 - cool, health does not really go down much anymore...

[Salvador]

I realise this isn't strictly the point of this topic, but I've always took health levels to be insignificant. Sure, it's convenient that when you're facing a fixed damage thief it doesn't hurt so bad to be well over 1000, but ultimately if you're refusing to fight simply out of concern for your   
level, high or otherwise, it just diminishes the experience further. I've been to 1570, and I've been beaten down to 470, and I'm really inclined to say it's convenience more than anything else. If you're dying, at least you're fighting and being knocked down from however high to however low, to me just signifies alot of experience and more learning opportunity.

I'm sure there are many of us on the big peers list willing to give out help and advice, regardless of your city of birth, as Narissa says, it just breeds competence, and no one wants boring enemies!

[Ygraine]

Firstly, let me say I feel great trepidation in replying to this post, as I have only been in Avalon for a few months, and am definitely still a relative 'newbie'.

What I would say is what drew me to Avalon was precisely the range of possibilities it offered and the wide spectrum of characters the land encompassed.  One of Avalon's great strengths, it seemed to me, was that there was room for those of a less warlike disposition to co-exist with the more bellicose characters.  I chose pw status early on, but did so in the belief that I could work to serve my city just as effectively, in different ways, and still contribute to the game as a whole.

Over the last month or so, however, things seem to have shifted noticeably - while I am not qualified to discuss the relative merits of ddw, protection etc., surely it would be a pity for the game to narrow down completely to cities and individuals locked in eternal conflict? Or am I simply being naive, and in future is combat going to be the only way to exist in Avalon?

Thoughtfully yours
Ygraine

[Bowdyn]

Ygraine,

There is a lot of debate in Avalon surrounding what you say. Some people appreciate pw status and the range of depth it offers some characters, others stifle a guffaw, mutter a random swear and sputter on about how useless it is.  I make no claim about which is right and which is wrong. In my opinion, it is up to the players guiding the characters' hands. Some have made pw a great way to build up contentious cities behind the safety of godly protection, others use it as a way to socialize, help the young, contribute to a community in a healthy manner without having to worry about violence or personal injury. Others, like pw because it unlocks avalon as their own personal chat room.  without passing judgement myself, i'll say that a lot of fighters would tell you, "read help concept." Under there it says quite a spiel about conflict, war and violence. And in general i think that was the creator's intention. With the introduction of things like pw and ddw, i think the creator also sees the benefit in having those not interested in combat present in the land.  I daresay it would be a much harder, angrier, and perhaps even uglier place if it were full of nothing but eager combatants.  I find that there are those who use pw to stop themselves from dying. Usually their mouths get them into more trouble than they can handle, and instead of learning to defend themselves they choose the less difficult and less time consuming route of choosing pacifism. Alternatively there are those who just truly never had any interest in combat whatsoever. regardless of the motivations behind a pw character, i believe they're here to stay.

As far as your closing statement regarding eternal conflict? Yes, Avalon will forever be a place of cities and individuals locked in unending conflict. I do not personally believe the war between Thakria and Mercinae will ever end (nor is it likely to with Springdale either). I myself would go one step further and suggest, "who would want it to?"  If you take away the conflict in avalon, give us four cities that co-exist peacefully and uneventfully, what have you done? Transformed avalon into a place that IS a glorified chat room, with the ability to horde commodities or amass boring fortunes.  No, conflict is a necessary part of keeping that world interesting, and violence is a fun way for many to engage in it.

Just my thoughts,

[Ygraine]

Bowdyn,

I appreciate your thoughtful and considered reply, and I have read help concept, and can only agree with much of what you say.

I do completely understand the game is founded on conflict, I simply hoped (and continue to hope) that there will be room in Avalon for us all - or surely a game with only warriors would be as limited as one with everlasting peace? 

Ygraine

[Trakea]

Having just read this entire thread finally, I'd like to provide my insight.  I think we're missing an important point.

When did DP become so unacceptable? 

During my youth, I had my legendary bully moments.  Sometimes these lasted days during which I'd ship 5 or 6 or 10 times.  But when I grew weary, I stayed DP for a few days and regathered my strength.  Some people need more time to recover, I understand this.  I even understand that there are some true pacifists in Avalon, those that really detest death.  But honestly, there are very rare circumstances that DP doesn't cover (buying animals, resurrecting, and bashing). 

Specific to DDW/PW, what we fighters detest is that Avalon is slowly creating more and more options for cowards to talk big, be offensive, ruin roleplay, all without consequences.  None of us sit around angry about Mestopholies being PW, or someone like Algernon being DDW, because they actually play the role and seem to have a purpose.  But, we can not handle the Rynn's, Rajj's, and other assorted OOC players that insult people's RL pictures or jobs, generally ruin the game, and leave no room for the people that genuinely seek recourse to obtain it.

Hopefully that wasn't too much of a rant, but it's something I feel completely detrimental to the land, and an unnecessery addition.

[Algernon]

The only thing I detest about death are the magazines on the ship of death.  They never rotate them.  I've read them all cover to cover, and some Springdalian did all the sudoku puzzles - incorrectly, I might add! 

(Kidding!  Kidding!  *Ducks under the table*)

[Narissa]

Ygraine,

Most fighters have absolutely no problem with people not wanting to fight. In fact, us "fighters" actually do a surprisingly varied amount of things with our time - some out of need to finance combat, some out of actual enjoyment (my first ult AND ult plus, for example, was farming - and when Genesis needed to review the viability and usefulness of our current commodity system, he didn't go to a PW for the dark side's opinion ).

The issue, at the least for me, is the ignorance, complacence and dullness PW makes all too easy. Before PW, there were still pacifist characters - look at Alexandra for a great option. She is a complete noncombatant, and uses policy and negotiation to avoid fighting, and people respect her greatly - not a PW. Look at Grundy, perhaps the land's greatest nonfighter (now known as Lord Proteus) - never a fighter, but so skilled at avoiding combat and those who would kill him, that he made it an art.

Without protection, people can still be non-fighters - but they have to be competent and skilled at what they do, they have to be alert and sharp (and, hey, there are enough safe spots, like the pool and stockroom, that anyone who needs a break can chill there for a bit!) and they have to face up to the consequences of their actions. With protection....we have Fatalus...

------

P.S.

Another issue, related, that people have with PW and DDW - masses of people going that route to "build up their skills" - ie, sit and idle without any chance of danger. Fighters have to either sit DP (which means they aren't generating guild or city enlistable men) or sit in stockroom/temple (no lesson gain, no men!). Not a very balanced dichotomy.

My suggestion is that those on DDW get lower xp gain or lesson gain, as a sacrifice for the immense protection they get. I think something like that would help to appease the fighters.

[Trakea]

My apologies, I noticed I forgot to add my solution to the DDW question to the mix.  I think DDW should not timeout based on skills, but rather on XP.  For example, if a DDW gets to 1220, they lose the status of DDW.  This would mean DDW would actually serve it's purpose of providing some protection for those needing to grow and learn, but it would also force those that just use DDW to bash and generally pervert XP to lose it at a reasonable size.  Also, it would give players the dichotomy that Narissa mentioned.  Being able to practice and hone their skills safely at lower sizes, and being thrown into the chaos of combat when they get bigger, forced to ride the roller coaster that is life as a non-PW.

[Oldplayer]

"I am upset about DDW, because it allows people to choose their invulnerability. A duellist can attack you in your own city, assuming they are enemied to the city..."

Big deal you can attack them too! If you are such a great fighter, hinder them from leaving.

"I personally don't like the duellist status, and think if you're going to be a fighter, be a fighter all the time, not when it suits you..."

As opposed to when it suits you?

"My issue with DDW, PW, the Dragon, temple-idling (before lesson changes), DP-panning, etc etc etc is that you get generations of people raised (cough Eloire) who suddenly end up with max skills and absolutely no competence with them."

So? It's not your business to decide what they do. If they pay money to play, and pay money to acquire skills, who are you to say anything?

"My biggest problem with duellist is Uwo and Narissa's point about hiding behind it.  It should be size capped... or done away with. It DOES have the potential to allow youngsters to learn on their own terms, so that i would list as a potential benefit... if used correctly. The issue is not using it as intended. taking ddw and NOT challenging. Narissa is right when she says people lose the need to learn because they're not under any threat. Nothing in avalon made me better at surviving than getting jumped."

No it shouldn't. What about people who have been out of the land for ages and then return having forgotten everything? It allows them to relearn on their own terms as well does it not? Narissa is wrong. It doesn't negate the need to learn, and this is nothing but "me, me, me, what I want" thinking on both of your parts.

"I found myself getting jumped, repeatedly, but not getting information - in fact, some rather elementary information - from friend OR foe."

This is what happens and precisely why these people are complaining about it because they can't do it anymore. Their fun is at everyone else's expense, which is precisely why it now exists. Some players were even going around telling others they would run them off from the game and continually jumping them.

"Anyway, a perfect example of the problem with ddw and deeper a problem with some of the cities at their very core occurred just the other night. Apprentice Cavalier Therion logs in, says hi and defs up. Then looks around for someone to fight. Upon asking every single one of his ddw peers and being turned down for whatever comedy of excuses they could provide... He gets fed up and leaves."

Big deal. This happens with a lot of issues, such as needing an item to continue what you are doing but no one is around to provide it and everyone you ask cannot provide. There is more to the game than just fighting alone.

"Specific to DDW/PW, what we fighters detest is that Avalon is slowly creating more and more options for cowards to talk big, be offensive, ruin roleplay, all without consequences."

This is a wide blanket statement. So because a few do it should be done away with? Again I am hearing more of this "me, me, me, what I want" talk.

"Most fighters have absolutely no problem with people not wanting to fight."

Obviously they do. Look at the complaints about DDW.

"Without protection, people can still be non-fighters - but they have to be competent and skilled at what they do, they have to be alert and sharp (and, hey, there are enough safe spots, like the pool and stockroom, that anyone who needs a break can chill there for a bit!) and they have to face up to the consequences of their actions."

Interesting that you and others do not make the same statement in regards to all the asshats that go around continually jumping people. Should they not face up to consequences?

"Another issue, related, that people have with PW and DDW - masses of people going that route to "build up their skills" - ie, sit and idle without any chance of danger."

In other words you mean we can no longer continually jump them. They took away our fun right? More of the "me, me" mentality.

Out of all the complaints about DDW the recurring theme is that you don't like it because it doesn't suit what YOU want. The game is not about YOU, it is about everyone. DDW is a compromise, and I see nothing wrong with it. Besides, if people wouldn't be total asses in the game and treat others like crap continually, DDW would have never been needed in the first place. What you should be doing is complaining about the behavior that brought it about in the first place!

[Bowdyn]

"Oldplayer"...

First let me congratulate you on taking what was a constructive and friendly debate, and making it sound like the Avalon fighters board. I applaud your lack of bravery at offering all this "wisdom" behind the completely vague moniker that means nothing to anyone, except some implication that we should place some arbitrary faith in your words because if you're an old player, you MUST know what you're talking about.

Now as opposed to picking apart your every word and belittling it and you together (a divisive and inflamatory tactic) I will settle for pointing out some things you might not know.

A little on forum etiquette...
This is a public forum. The topic of this thread is DDW, PW, Protection, Hiding and Training. In theme with public forums and threads which pertain to a topic of interest to any user of said forum, one may post their OPINIONS or BELIEFS regarding said topic. You can disagree with peoples' opinions or beliefs all you want. However, claiming that they are "wrong" is presumptuous, biased and self-absorbed. We are all here to debate and discuss and share information, ideas, or anything else we please. Do not presume to lecture us on who we are or what right we have to say what we say. We are forum members, we have all the right to post whatever the moderators see fit to allow. That goes for all of us, you included.  I'm sure no one else minds you sharing your opinions here. The manner in which you do so, however, is offensive, divisive and damages the overall atmosphere of the forums.

In short, stop trolling.

[Oldplayer]

I'm not trolling. I am simply using your arguments against you. As you can see some of the arguments being made against DDW are pretty absurd really. You are correct in that you in that everyone is free to state their opinions. However, I thought I would provide an opposing view, since the majority of you seem to be against it. Yet you state I am simply trolling... Hypocritical really.

Also it doesn't matter who I am. I could be anyone. The point is the game is for EVERYONE to enjoy, not just a few who like to jump and kill everyone.