Good, evil, IC, OOC?

[Maud]

That whole incident with Lyonesse was so damaging to her RL self that she, and the person portraying her husband, permanently ended up leaving the lands.  While you could argue that such events make a great opportunity for roleplay, they can also have a detrimental effect on people.  Babies in Avalon represent -- not just the love and care you'd expect them to -- but the goodwill of Olympus to assist in their creation and the sacrifice of an extraordinary amount of essence (or gold) for their "birth".  So, please, please take that into consideration before you think about pulling a stunt like that.  Your actions could hurt more than your intention was meant to do.

Speaking oocly here, when I hear about things like Shawn Hornbeck or child slaves, etc. and then see Avalonian parallels (kidnapping of children, sales), it makes me sick.  You can portray an awful lot of evilness in Avalon but when you start picking on the innocent, then I start getting angry.

[Endyamon]

That whole incident with Lyonesse was so damaging to her RL self that she, and the person portraying her husband, permanently ended up leaving the lands.  While you could argue that such events make a great opportunity for roleplay, they can also have a detrimental effect on people.  Babies in Avalon represent -- not just the love and care you'd expect them to -- but the goodwill of Olympus to assist in their creation and the sacrifice of an extraordinary amount of essence (or gold) for their "birth".  So, please, please take that into consideration before you think about pulling a stunt like that.  Your actions could hurt more than your intention was meant to do.

Speaking oocly here, when I hear about things like Shawn Hornbeck or child slaves, etc. and then see Avalonian parallels (kidnapping of children, sales), it makes me sick.  You can portray an awful lot of evilness in Avalon but when you start picking on the innocent, then I start getting angry.

So because some people can't tell the difference between a game and reality, everyone else should stifle their creativity for fear of psychologically damaging those who might not be able to handle a dramatic situation involving text-based property?  Nonsense.

[Every Seer in Avalon]

Isn't city warfare a bit like... you know, war? Where innocent folks die and families suffer? Isn't that tragic? we should stop doing it, right now, because I knew a guy who died once.

[Maud]

Isn't city warfare a bit like... you know, war? Where innocent folks die and families suffer? Isn't that tragic? we should stop doing it, right now, because I knew a guy who died once.

There's a difference between warfare in Avalon and human suffering.  Ender's actions weren't an act of war (in my opinion).  Let me pose a question to Endy here -- do you REALLY think it's "fun" or "enjoyable" or what not to portray someone who sadistically terrorizes GOOD people (like Lyonesse) or digs up bodies to perform experiments on them?  Someone is going to argue that it's "a game" and yeah it is, but, what kinds of sick minds do you people have that you get your kicks off of stuff like that?  Wouldn't it be more rewarding to your spirit and soul to try to strive after leaving a positive contribution to the land or to its inhabitants or making your mark in some way that might actually benefit your RL psyche?

[Algernon]

Um, I'm speaking up as the child of a horror novelist, and thus as someone who grew up with somebody who gets paid for writing sick, scary, spooky stories about monsters and human beings who behave monstrously.  A few of his stories make this log about Kodiak's body look like a Disney feature.  I have bopped my father over the head with a manuscript he showed me and said, "You are no longer my father!  Sick, sick, terrible man!"  And then we both giggled like little kids.

What kind of sick person enjoys making up stories like Narissa and Endyamon's improv around Kodiak's body?  Answer: perfectly healthy imaginative mortal people, that's who.  Come on.  There's ghoulish, twisted, fun stuff back through our earliest mythologies. 

[Every Seer in Avalon]

Isn't city warfare a bit like... you know, war? Where innocent folks die and families suffer? Isn't that tragic? we should stop doing it, right now, because I knew a guy who died once.

There's a difference between warfare in Avalon and human suffering.  Ender's actions weren't an act of war (in my opinion).  Let me pose a question to Endy here -- do you REALLY think it's "fun" or "enjoyable" or what not to portray someone who sadistically terrorizes GOOD people (like Lyonesse) or digs up bodies to perform experiments on them?  Someone is going to argue that it's "a game" and yeah it is, but, what kinds of sick minds do you people have that you get your kicks off of stuff like that?  Wouldn't it be more rewarding to your spirit and soul to try to strive after leaving a positive contribution to the land or to its inhabitants or making your mark in some way that might actually benefit your RL psyche?

It was only a comparison, sweets, and you flunked it over. What else? My more questionable accomplishments in avalon have made me feel quite giddy now and then, certainly more creative and inspired - I would call this a boost to my RL psyche.  I'm playing at being another person, and it's done me some good.

Algernon's got the right idea.

[Endyamon]

Let me pose a question to Endy here -- do you REALLY think it's "fun" or "enjoyable" or what not to portray someone who sadistically terrorizes GOOD people (like Lyonesse) or digs up bodies to perform experiments on them? 

Yep.

Someone is going to argue that it's "a game" and yeah it is, but, what kinds of sick minds do you people have that you get your kicks off of stuff like that?

Since you're so quick to judge me as "sick", please pardon me for being quick to judge you as dull and bereft of imagination.  I believe Algernon has answered your point sufficiently and I see no reason to add to his contribution.

Wouldn't it be more rewarding to your spirit and soul to try to strive after leaving a positive contribution to the land or to its inhabitants or making your mark in some way that might actually benefit your RL psyche?

I do enough of that in real life.  Avalon isn't real life.  Learn the difference.

[Eudueria]

I don't really jump into these frays very often, because I myself flail miserably at most of the roleplay aspects of the game, and because I'm not a big enough *player* to really expect to be listened to, but having voraciously read these threads, I want to comment.


Narissa, Endyamon are EVIL characters. Not just evil, or Evil, but EVIL. The things EVIL characters do are MEANT to create feelings of shock, disgust, dismay, disillusionment, fear, and the like within characters that are NOT EVIL. As I seriously doubt the players behind Narissa and Endyamon are out scouring the streets and pulling bodies out of the sewers to peel apart and dissect, I don't think having at them in the manner that's happening here is quite fair. After all, if the EVIL characters in the world don't do horrific, disgusting, EXTREME things, then what the hell do the GOOD guys have as a foil to work from? And frankly, getting people to roleplay in Avalon is oftentimes like pulling teeth.... extreme actions beget extreme REactions, and maybe they can shock some of the rest of the populace into equally extreme GOOD scenarios.

Frankly, I feel robbed, not having had the likes of Narissa and Endyamon and others I'm noticing at least trying to roleplay get up in MY face when I was young. The young Thieves I run into within the lands are earning anything they manage to pick off MY destitute ass through their use of accent, and lingo, and mannerism, and I think this is in great part to the confidence they get to do these LITTLE things by witnessing people with enough balls to enact these huge, dramatic scenarios. Maybe if Narissa had cut MY heart out when I was a baby light-magess, the awe would have created a better character.


Algernon and Furion have my hats off for not only trying to rise to the occasion, but for trying to implant some sort of role play viability into the GOOD guy side of Avalon, for all that it seems to be an uphill battle. I think these posts, rather than being some sort of disgusting, sick menace represent a building in the minds of all who read them of these particular characters and what they want to represent in the realm, and if you react with your guts and feelings in such a manner, rather than calling them sick and somehow tying it to real life get your ass in there and try to take them out... fight fire with fire, role play your horror and disgust, role play your attacks and retaliation for such 'abominable' behaviours.

I envy them their ability to let go in this manner, to 'become' these characters. I also think that I'm thankful to them for inciting others to follow suit, Avalon would be so much more amazing than it even already is if people would spend as much time creating their characters as they do creating their settings.


Will work for role play lessons *wink*


Eudueria

[Rynn]

After all, if the EVIL characters in the world don't do horrific, disgusting, EXTREME things, then what the hell do the GOOD guys have as a foil to work from? And frankly, getting people to roleplay in Avalon is oftentimes like pulling teeth.... extreme actions beget extreme REactions, and maybe they can shock some of the rest of the populace into equally extreme GOOD scenarios.

And what exactly would that extreme GOOD scenario look like? A bunch of druids sitting around NOT sadistically killing people? And doing what instead? What is extreme GOOD? Nursing orphaned kittens by hand? Knitting socks for the Community Chest? Holding a bake sale for the desolate villagers in Krempton? Not exactly good theater there.

[Ender]

Just to throw my opinion into the mix and clarify some misconceptions about myself and the events with the babies.

Ender has never acted out of evil, Evil or even EVIL.  In fact, I would go so far as to say that Ender really isn’t evil – he is just utterly selfish; prepared to do anything to get what he wants and determined to get what he wants.  In addition, he takes occasional pleasure toying with peoples’ emotions and their minds – for his own amusement and the feeling of empowerment it brings. (if that it evil – look closely at your own life).  Finally, chaos brings opportunity and Ender is an opportunist.

The stealing of Lyonesses’ babies was two fold – firstly I completely expected them to be returned to her by the gods (note my expectation to do this from the original post I made) and I wanted to canvas support against the Animists and the double standards which protect them and not others.  If they were not returned by a god I expected Lyonesse personally to strike a deal for their return and I would have held out for yearly supplies of unprepared Wurtfoil – which is a huge benefit to a fighting bear. 

In the end no deal was offered and no god interfered – so I sold the babies to help fix the personal rift and build a closer relationship with one of the key forces in the land at the time, Nostradamus.  The fact that I accepted a coat for the transaction shows this was more an offering than a trade.

At no point did I think “Oh, Ender is EVIL, this is so EVIL, what great roleplay! – because frankly that sort of logic and roleplay is shallow and does more harm to the world than good.

Finally – several days after the event Lyonesse’s real life husband approached me.  He wanted to explain that Lyonesse had left the land but held no hard feelings towards me.  While I will not go into the details here, she did not leave because of in-game events but because of what they represented in her real life.

In summary – there are no evil people in real life – humans are a lot more complex than that.  Calling yourself Evil and acting like a twat only does Avalon a disservice.

[Ender]

What does extreme good look like?

Like this:

Mage Lord Tragnarion enters the land during a time of heightened warfare and threat against himself and his city.  Having recently won a divine gem he is at the peak of his powers but times are tough and he is one of the few defenders of Mercinae and that target of all Thakrians.  Taking sensible precautions before leaving the safety of the inner sanctum of his guild-house he hurriedly summons protective rituals, surrounding himself in light and hell flames.  In his hurry, he errs.

Despite having sketched these magics a thousands times before he makes a mistake, he summons rituals which will hit all, everyone, even the unseen and innocent baby resting in the crib in the corners of the hall.  Before he even realises what has happened the crib and baby are engulfed in flames.  He desperately tries to dispel the rituals but it is too late.  The baby is dead.

Wracked with guilt and desperate to undo what he has done he approaches his patron Genesis, the god of time.  Only the power of time is sufficient to turn back what was done and return the baby to life. Tragnarion knows this and beseeches his patron for help.  Genesis agrees, but at a price.  If the Mage Lord agrees to sacrifice the power afforded to him by his divine gem the babe will be granted the gift of life once more.

Without hesitation Mage Lord Tragnarion agrees and he feels the power of the gem draining from his body the baby stirs and comes back to life in his arms.

The End.


That is what good looks like.  He didn’t emote hug, he didn’t say “doh, sorry dude, totally hit the wrong macro”.  He simply sacrificed the single most powerful thing he had ever possessed, the opportunity to become a god, for an NPC baby of a fellow mage.  Did he do it because his alignment said “Good”?  Hell no!  He did it because he is altruistic, puts the feelings of others before his own and can empathise with the pain losing a child must bring.

P.S.  Right after this was resolved Tragnarion went on a killing spree in Thakria, slaughtering anyone foolish enough to leave the safety of their temples.  Because that is what he did everyday.  Because he fought for what he believed in.

[Endyamon]

Narissa, Endyamon are EVIL characters. Not just evil, or Evil, but EVIL.

I beg to differ.  While I can't speak for Narissa (though I don't believe she'd agree either), Endyamon certainly isn't EVIL.  He's a thief and morally challenged, sure, but he doesn't go around ruminating upon what shocking and dispicable acts he should be doing on a given day.  Playing around with a dead body is morbid; ghoulish at best, but evil?  I don't think so.  No one was hurt, and my character is certainly one of Avalon's least violent for someone who isn't DDW, PW, or perpetually DP. 

While it may not suit me, I'll defend someone's right to roleplay more unwholesome situations and characters because ultimately, it's simply make-believe.

[Eudueria]

Hmm I suppose Endyamon's response is both not the point and exactly the point. The role play activities they engage in within the realm as well as flesh out here give people something to perceive and react to, because regardless of your take on the morality, immorality, or alignment of your actions the true role play comes from someone else's perceptions of it and what they decide to do in response.


The crux of my windy comments was that I think it's wonderful that there are people who are putting it out there to react to, and that there are young up and comers who are taking up the challenge to develop the plot lines, accents, backgrounds and traits.


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