Author Topic: Tarian's Roleplaying Guide  (Read 1368 times)

Offline Tarian

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Tarian's Roleplaying Guide
« on: December 05, 2007, 05:45:07 AM »
I. Introduction

Roleplaying is something that exists both in and out of Avalon. It both pre-dates and permeates the game. It is also the subject of considerable debate (both within and without the context of Avalon, but here we are only concerned with the former). As part of an ongoing conversation with Narissa, and subsequent to her becoming a moderator, I have decided to post a roleplaying guide. Let me start by explaining a few things: in particular, my motivation, my own history and experience with roleplaying (so you can get a sense of where I’m coming from when I write this), and a short explanation of what (I think) this guide is as well as what it isn’t.

Narissa and several others are concerned with the amount and type of roleplaying that exists currently in Avalon. It might also be noted that there are others in the game who don’t seem to care about roleplaying at all, or would just as soon it didn’t exist. I came to Avalon from a background of pen-and-paper roleplaying -- I got my start on good old D&D -- and, as such, I have my own distinct opinions on the matter. The way I see it, these sorts of differences emerge from the existence of three basic archetypes of roleplayers in Avalon (in a very general sense):

1. Those who have roleplayed in other environments than Avalon. This may be people who had prior experience before coming in (like myself), or people who learned to roleplay in Avalon and went on to other things, subsequently modifying their style.

2. Those who have only roleplayed in Avalon. Because of the stylistic bias that’s probably inherent to any roleplaying environment, these people are going to have some ‘quirky’ opinions from the point-of-view of a Type 1 player. These differences may surface in the discussion, so we all need to be aware of them. We’ll try to iron them out as best we can.

3. Those who don’t roleplay at all. Hopefully we can convert all these people to Type 2 players before long!


Avalon is an interesting environment for roleplaying because in some sense roleplay is both ‘built into’ and ‘built out of’ the game, if you’ll permit me the metaphor. Roleplaying is distinctly a part of Avalon, and it cannot be otherwise. For what I presume is Genesis’ view on the matter, see the following quotes from the help system:

There is no distinction in Avalon between role and real. You will find the Gods especially are not interested in the neat distinction between in-character and out-of-character. There is no difference. Within Avalon, all is one - you choose to step into this world, and while you do so, you live by its laws... You cannot simply step outside your character when things become difficult.  (excerpted from ‘help concept’)

Avalon is a World - it is not simply a selection of locations containing treasure and problems to overcome. It has inhabitants (of which you are, of course, one), cities, villages, and wildlife. Even when you are not playing, there will be things going on, plots developing. To ensure that you enjoy as much as possible of this astounding world it is necessary for you to behave as if you WERE the character you are playing. To enjoy fully the complexity of Avalon you will have to treat your character as an extension of your own being - do with him/her what you would do in any particular situation. (excerpted from ‘help conduct’)

Your standing among your contemporaries is, for most people, very important. Since it is you who decides what your character says and does, all relationships which you strike up with other players will be real and continuous. Hence deciding upon a role is one of your most important decisions... Try, as often as possible, to stick to your chosen role. Ensure that decisions your character makes are consistent with its role. (excerpted from ‘help roleplay’)

I take these to be ways in which roleplay is (conceptually, at least) ‘built into’ the game. But, unfortunately, as I mentioned, there are also ways in which roleplay is ‘built out of’ it as well. Some of you may have played online games where there exists an ‘OOC channel’ or something equivalent. In general in Avalon, whatever you say (besides something in a msg, which can get expensive!) can be overheard by other players. This means that when you say anything OOC, even if you say it to someone expecting it, you risk breaking immersion for people unintentionally. If you don’t know, breaking immersion means suddenly jarring someone out of a fantasy experience; for instance, if Narissa was performing one of her (in)famous rituals, and someone sent her a tell asking her the outcome of a football game, that would break immersion not only for her, but for everyone present who was expecting an over-the-top roleplay experience.

There are also some very common things that just cannot be done in character. Reading help files is a very good example, and there are numerous others. There are ways to deal with situations like this, and I will try to illustrate some as I go on with the guide. Relating the syntax of commands is another very common and good example that I will discuss later. Additionally, there are a large amount of ‘novices’ playing at any given time who threaten to suddenly break immersion with their shouts or tells, because they do not understand the game. This is an unfortunate but entirely necessary aspect of the game, and I will try to touch on it in the guide. (It can be, on the whole, one of the hardest things to deal with if you get a particularly thick or stubborn novice.)

Finally, there are some things in Avalon which are just terribly counterintuitive given our real-life experience. In Avalon, knights carry 70 potions in their hands while smoking 3 pipes and fighting with 2 swords. In the midst of this, a bear may run by at lightning-speed pushing a cart, waving as he passes. That bear may be riding anything from a scorpion to a wyvern to a little innocent-looking chestnut pony. It may even be the case that the whole reason that pony didn't attack the bear on sight is because the bear stubbornly disbelieved that the pony had become disloyal. You get the idea. A very common thing that may be difficult for some roleplayers to explain is the ‘tell’ system. Additionally, many things that are added to Avalon have a very ad hoc feel surrounding their explanation. It’s left to the characters to interpret in an immersive way what it means to have a dream ‘prepared afresh’ for them, or the land ‘printing itself upon the mind of its creator’, or where exactly that ‘distant haven’ is where their ‘sleeping souls go to be safe’. Bugs in the game software present a similar problem. And, of course, there are many, many things that happen and given a simple, unsatisfying explanation: ‘a god (or gods) wanted it that way.’

So where does this leave us?

Well, it leaves me with a great deal of work to do, if I’m to construct this guide the way I intend. (And, as a corollary, it leaves you with a load of reading if you intend to follow it.) So let me close my extraordinarily long post with a few words on what I expect this guide will be, and what I explicitly stipulate that it isn’t.

This is a catalogue of my opinions on the matter of roleplaying, especially as it pertains (and will pertain) to Avalon. They’re just opinions, not law. They can be disagreed with, supplemented, or outright denied. Please feel free to explore my biases and my lacks of information. If there’s something you think is wrong or non-applicable, respond to the relevant post with your criticism and we’ll discuss it till we get it right. In the same vein, since this is for the benefit of everyone, please feel free to reproduce any and all material posted here anywhere you like. I don’t ask for any foolish copyright or credit. Information is only good if people have access to it.

Please also help or contribute to this project in any way you can. Reply to posts, discuss points, and spread the word to your friends in-game who may not be forum members. Part of this project will be (I hope) to write a short guide to roleplaying each of the classes. Originally, Narissa and I discussed making ‘character kits’ for each class, proposing a few generic ways to play the various professions until your character develops independent status, intended to help new roleplayers get off and running. If this is going to work, I’ll need lots of input from all four cities and all nine professions to do justice to the spirit of each. Thanks in advance for your time, and cheers to you if you read all that!

Offline Crael

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Re: Tarian's Roleplaying Guide
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2007, 07:04:06 AM »
From HELP CONCEPT:

There is no distinction in Avalon between role, and real. You will find the
Gods especially are not interested in the neat distinction between
in-character and out-of-character.
Warm up? We may as well sit round this cigarette. This is ridiculous. We'll be found dead in here next spring.

Offline Tarian

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Re: Tarian's Roleplaying Guide
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2007, 07:24:10 AM »
I had already included that in my post. It's one of my favourite quotes from the help manual!

Offline Elanna

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Re: Tarian's Roleplaying Guide
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2008, 06:24:20 AM »
So, what happened to the Roleplaying Guide? Did Tarian get sidetracked by real life events and stop playing Avalon? I was quite interested in seeing what he was going to include in his RP guide, as I had hopes that it would give me some ideas for roleplaying my character. I know that I, for one, do a less than stellar job at proper roleplaying, probably because I am a bit too lazy to put much effort into it. And proper roleplay and character development does take effort and a good bit of planning. A good, basic guide could be quite helpful to those not accustomed to active roleplay. So, are there any plans for continuing to put together an "RP Guide"?
"Our life always expresses the result of our dominant thoughts." Sren Kierkegaard

Offline Algernon

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Re: Tarian's Roleplaying Guide
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2008, 07:27:57 AM »
It is a worthy project - just adds a dimension of fun to the game.  Forgot about this manual Tarian was working on.  Been a long, long time since I've seen him on.

Offline Ender

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Re: Tarian's Roleplaying Guide
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2009, 02:08:06 PM »
Avalon has gone thought waves of -roleplay- over the last 20 years or so, generally spearheaded by some keen sole who believes that what the game really needs is a layer of abstraction.

I believe in HELP CONCEPT completely.  Avalon does not need a layer of abstraction.  I am Ender, I am Kurgan, I am Demosthenes.  Each of these versions of myself live their life with a different set of loyalties, quirks, rules of conduct, goals and general attitude.  But they are all basically me, Jon, hi.  I believe in this to the extent that I wouldn't have a problem with Genesis punishing Ender for the behavior of Demosthenes.  *(an extreme example, but it has happened in the past).

I also don't have a problem with in\out of character distinction.  I've had many OOC conversations with Nostradamus, Damocles, Genesis etc. etc. and I treat them with a very similar level of respect as if I was addressing them in character.  I've found it's really very simple - just assume that the person you are talking to is their character at all times.

I don't even think ANY of the BBs on Avalon should be OOC, not meets, not elders, not news.  One of the things I liked most about Avalon is that there are no GMs, no Admins, no IC, no OOC.  It's just Avalon, you, me and the gods.

It's clean, simple, and elegant - and actually what REALLY jars me is when someone pretends  to play a role, rather than just being that role.  That does more to pull me out of my character than any conversation about football.


Offline Narissa

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Re: Tarian's Roleplaying Guide
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2009, 02:31:35 PM »
Eh, so you go to meets and stuff as Ender, too?

Narissa hates Merc, but I consider Alison (India) a good friend - but I suppose I see what you mean. Because I consider her a friend RL, I wouldn't ever be too mean or rude to her in Avalon (unlike, say, how I'd treat Finbar).

In any case, you're missing the point a bit. What people are saying they miss isn't so much the IC/OOC stuff. It's Avalon, there will always be blurring because of bug runes and lack of channels. It's more that people are missing the creative interactions/mob possessions/emoted adventures, I think. Lately things have just been very much business and combat and stuff, I haven't had time for the creativity, so sorry about that guys. :(
Apollo, the God of light tells you, "It's always the loud ones..."


Offline Ender

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Re: Tarian's Roleplaying Guide
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2009, 10:37:46 AM »
Yes, I go to meets as Ender.  Ender = Demosthenes = Kurgan = Jon.  That is, and I'm going to say something contentious here,  the point of help concept.

I am Ender, I am Kurgan, I am Demosthenes.  Each of these versions of myself live their life with a different set of loyalties, quirks, rules of conduct, goals and general attitude.  But they are all basically me, Jon, hi.

I did not miss the point, I simply disagree with it completely.

My point is in-fact the opposite.  I can only speak for myself, but I find that the staged, heavy-handed, "reative interactions/mob possessions/emoted adventures" do more to bring me out of character than to put me in character.

If you really want to make me feel in-character, then set yourself a goal and work towards it through action or words which are meaningful in the context of the world.  If you want to steal newbie brigands and torture them and kill them - then do so - don't emote it.

What Avalon lacks (and has always been short of) is epic scale goals and objectives which unit and inspire players.  Calagan, Dreeman, Andromeda, Damocles... these people are able to inspire others to work for months on an goal much greater than they would otherwise attempt.  And that is the stuff of stories, or legends... then, and only then, you have a ROLE which you achieve through PLAY.

Andromeda: the construction of Springdale
Calagan and Dreeman: some frankly amazing theives guild stuff (to secret to mention here)
Damocles: several large-scale and world changing objectives he set to his order.
Nostradamus:  the coop of Thakria
Narissa (and others):  unification of the thieves guilds

These people played a role and they did so without once saying "Forsooth" or "Thou"





Offline Alister

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Re: Tarian's Roleplaying Guide
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2009, 11:23:55 AM »
I agree with you 100% Ender and you have summed up for me very concisely what i've had much trouble trying to express myself to people. HELP CONCEPT says it all.

There is no distinction in Avalon between role, and real. You will find the
Gods especially are not interested in the neat distinction between
in-character and out-of-character. There is no difference. Within Avalon, all
is one.

I for one don't have any problem with the emoted interactions, or any of that. What i do have a problem with is when people say there should be more 'role-playing' within avalon. As if playing your character the way you have chosen to define it is somehow lacking.

The most satisfying and engaging times i've had in Avalon are when my character has overcome a big challenge, or sometimes the very opposite, when Alister is in the depths of despair. Those are the times when i feel the boundary between real and game drops and you are really engaged with your character, and be it a feeling of fulfillment, or anger, or sadness, that's what i play for.

Offline Narissa

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Re: Tarian's Roleplaying Guide
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2009, 09:55:50 AM »
I suppose. I think part of the remarks, though, were just saying that they missed the staged stuff. Yes, it's heavy-handed. Yes, it's "a show." It's a different avenue of play, in my head. Some days, I feel like a fight. Some days, I feel like being creative and crafting a story with other participants. I don't see anything wrong with either way to spend the day, nor do I see the need to constantly do either option every time I am online.

I will, however, disagree completely on the game and reality being one and the same. Avalon is a poorly run business, Genesis' pasttime, and I hardly see him as Godlike in his management of that, from an OOC standpoint. That doesn't mean that Narissa won't listen to him and deal respectfully with him regarding game issues, balance, skills, etc - it does, however, mean that I'm hardly going to sit and cater to his crack-induced ramblings about sausages on Hampton Heath when I'm in the middle of a fight.
Apollo, the God of light tells you, "It's always the loud ones..."


Offline Jashiri

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Re: Tarian's Roleplaying Guide
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2009, 11:05:21 AM »
I had never heard of a MUD before Avalon, and I had never, ever been into role playing of any sort. I’ve always felt awkward trying to play a character, and doing so always made me feel more than a little dorky—probably a part of why I was a terrible actor in a theatre class I took at university.   

I give that little preamble so you know what perspective I’m coming from when I give my opinion about the role play in Avalon, and my part in it.   

I feel more than a little put off when I hear people talking about football and books they’ve been reading, and often times when such conversations are going on, I just don’t take part. I would say that the character of Jashiri is a good bit like my real life self, but not precisely. I do like making some changes in her temperament so that I’m not completely connected to who she is. I feel like such an abstraction is necessary to not become unhealthily invested in Avalon. Though, I would say that when Jashiri was younger, I tried a lot harder to make her very different from my real life self. I would think that most people who knew me from a year ago would tell you that I’m not the same, and it isn’t so much that I’ve changed as a person, but rather that I’ve simply stopped putting up as many barriers when being Jashiri.   

So, for me, being a character is just that, being someone other than myself. I don’t really make an effort to create a story line for my life and think that isn’t exactly necessary. I enjoy thinking about what my character did during the first 20 years of her life, before going to the Springdale school, but other than that, I like things to be fluid and take their course.   

While I don’t like talking about real life issues in Avalon, I will tell people when I’m off to refill my coffee, or that I need to go to dinner, etc. On MSN, I will share with people who I really am, but I’m very cautious in the beginning because some people like using MSN knowledge for their in game manipulations, and that, above all, is the worse thing about Avalon. It also annoys me when people who get offended by what Jashiri did in land, block her on MSN. I guess it just goes to show how deep online friendships will go.   

That being said, as another character, I took part in Narissa’s Halloween murder mystery, and I found that to be extremely fun. Some of the other logs I’ve read, though, to me, felt awkward and like I wouldn’t be comfortable in that situation, doing as Ender said, pulling me out of who I am as my character. Though being punished for something one of my other characters did would piss me off and likely make me quit for good, as I don’t use one character, in an in game sense, to inform the knowledge one of my other characters has.   

Sorry for the novel, but it’s a big topic.

Offline Ender

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Re: Tarian's Roleplaying Guide
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2009, 11:08:22 AM »
I'm not sure I follow your point.  Let's take your sausage example:

I see that you basically have three options:

  • Tell Genesis the god of time to shut the fuck up about his Nocturnal Hampton Heathion Sausage Sage and expect to be zapped silly. (or not depending on mood)
  • Join in chatting about sausage from around the world and maybe get a favour for your love of the pork sword (stranger things have happened)
  • Answer that "lord, I have no idea of this hampton heath place - is it in Gant?" - and who knows what will happen.

For me, all of the above are completely consistent with the world and it's systems.  Is it very good 'roleplay'?  No, of course not, it's terrible.  Is it part of the game?  Not really.  Is it how other games do it?  Nope.  Is it 'fair'  -  in a strange way it's completely fair in the sense that everyone has the same opportunities in the world - yeah.

I'm almost 100% sure that you (by which I mean Narissa) has received some reward or favour for her help with bug fixing, testing and contributions to the game in general.  None of which is in-character in the sense of 'roleplay'.  And yet it's acceptable to you.

So, the lines are blurred and broken - the cleanest solution is just to remove the lines.


Offline Narissa

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Re: Tarian's Roleplaying Guide
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2009, 04:02:38 AM »
Shrug. Everyone can play as they want. I'm not going to say how I view Avalon, or any game, is how others should. However, having found myself in a rather long-term relationship with someone from the game, there ARE distinct spots where the game and RL do not mesh. Someone can be simply incredible in Avalon and fail on many levels in RL - viewing them as one and the same is a recipe for danger. (Not saying that this is what happened to me, just saying that reality =/= game persona)
Apollo, the God of light tells you, "It's always the loud ones..."