Census

[Isen]

What's the population of Avalon currently?  Healthy or no? While i was active the most I ever saw was around thirty (maybe not, i'm really bad at estimating this sort of thing).  Has anyone ever yearned for lots more people?  Say, enough to get lost in?  What is capacity for the server?  Are there aspects of the game that might not function with a hundred active players; for instance, I imagine gold quests would be spread thin.

[Amaraz]

Gold quests are already spread thin. People don't seem to want to, or be able to, spread out and inhabbit the other villages and cities unless they are rich as hell and can do it all by themselves. No one is really looking to expand other than the current cities with their SOI's. More people would be nice, but when everyone is crunched into four cities, odds don't look to good for that happening.

[Elmak]

Lord Genesis and Lord Apollo have many many times declared that the four cities are quite enough for the citizens of Avalon. Honestly, the cities are built for a higher rate of inhabitation than we have right now. In all honest speaking terms, with a few exceptions here and there, living in the cities or entirely without them is the best options for Avalon as I see it.

[Isen]

It strikes me that the dynamic aspects of Avalon - economies, warfare, group fighting and dueling, drama (love triangles) - would come alive with more people.  Imagine city politics with 40 active citizens each. 

Without a critical mass these things feel broken.  Perhaps a lower cost would entice people; right now it's more expensive than the hugely popular Warcraft for instance, and with one eight-millionth the player base.  It would be a pity to see Avalon fade away.



I have never liked gold quests. With functioning economies I would suggest abolishing them.  Repetitive quests and static events that don't move with the history of Avalon, but rather anchor it, ruin the attempt at creating a persistent world.  Likewise, the fewer CCC's the better.


P.S. It would be more than a pity!!!

[Sisyphus]

I remember a time when there were on average around 20 active citizens in a city who would work hard at farming and keeping the economy etc running smoothly.  Then there'd be a dozen or so fighters who'd be out causing trouble somewhere, or recruiting men for the armies.  Avalon used to be populated alot more than it is now when i visit.  Now a usual trip to Avalon will show me about 15 active people total, which is very sad.

Personally, I left because of the cost of playing.  As much as i loved being in the land, i just couldn't justify spending so much money playing in a land that never changes. I hate to say it (but i will), although the games of Iron Realms (for example) aren't as good as Avalon, being free makes them a hell of a lot more fun.

I understand that its hard to make changes all the time, but in the 6 years i've been registered within Avalon, Seafaring and numerous labor and farmings skills which would be really cool, have never even been hinted at being completed.  I can't say if they're any closer as i've not been in the land for a few months, for all i know they could be complete.

If i had my way, the people who pay to play would get houses and land while those who didn't pay to play would have to live out in the wilderness, or in Inn's etc.  Privileges for payers.


Man i rattle on sometimes....

[Isen]

In my opinion Avalon is one of the most innovative and engaging massively multiplayer games around, but seems incapable of implementing solutions to very basic problems;  this is very strange to me.  Where did that initial burst of creativity go? 

Perhaps I can clarify my tone.  I suggest that we discuss issues that could be addressed within Avalon - that is, that are generously within the realm of possibility - and reasons these issues go unmentioned.  Discuss, of course, only if there is interest. 

[Pahn]

As one who still remembers when Avalon was TRULY expensive to play (hourly charging/sleeplearning/phone bills from modem usage) I can honestly say that the current billing format is rather affordable.

That being said, however, I am firmly of the opinion that the change in charges was what in part caused the current state of affairs. Initially, it made the game more accessible to the masses in the gaming community and boosted the populace to the peak times you remember Sisyphus.

Then came the era of DSL/Cable access to the internet. This, combined with the change to monthly charging, opened the game up to a whole new kind of gamer. I won't go further into this as it'll certainly offend some people.

Leads me to my question, would you want to spend time, money and creative energy enhancing the gaming experience of a community that is hell-bent on making eachothers lives as miserable as possible?

Avalon is largely (and always has been) what we make of it.

[Isen]

I had not considered that.  Correct me if i'm mistaken.  You would argue that the constant, 16-hour-a-day gamer has been to the detriment of Avalon? 

You have a strong point with regards to economies and warfare.  Those with a preponderance of time will likely always outmaneuver, and outproduce less active players. 

The same argument is less cogent when applied to skill progression, although there are issues.  For instance, there are some that seek immediately to obtain all ultimates in their skill progression through a sort of hibernation.  Lost is time spent in the awkward, and hence interesting, intermediate steps during which skill sets are incomplete.  However, to argue against those with a wealth of time you must also argue against skill procurement, if you are to be honest.  (I am reminded of something Demosthenes has said, and I'm positive this topic has been hashed out many times.)

At the moment, were I forced to chose between players with too much time and players with too much money, I would err on the the side of those with time.  I believe - and I am optimistic in this regard - that Avalon would gain many creative and contemplative players, were it more accessible.  Indeed, It could encourage a more casual player, one who doesn't feel compelled to squeeze lessons out of every day they've payed to play. 

I would agree that Avalon is largely what we make of it, and I hope it is clear that my tone is positive and inquisitive.

[Pahn]

The 16-hour a day gamer has difficulties relating to the effort put into other characters, 9 times out of 10, as they've put minimal effort into their own.

"Back in the day" we tried to make every moment count because it really was precious, in very real terms. Now that it costs next to nothing to idle all day long, it seems we've begun to simply use Avalon as an outlet to vent at others, cause annoyance and boast about it later to our cliquish friends.

Point I am trying to make, is that the powers that be see what we do and say to eachother, and to them. And because of that, might be less inclined to invest their own effort into making it a better environment when it'll be pissed on by the majority of the player-base, their RP-efforts torn to shreds and new ideas called stupid and weak. (very real examples of these all that I won't share exist)

So the steady decline, in my opinion, is more due to the player-base than the people behind the business who seem to be taking most of the criticism.

[Rajj]

The 16-hour a day gamer has difficulties relating to the effort put into other characters, 9 times out of 10, as they've put minimal effort into their own.

"Back in the day" we tried to make every moment count because it really was precious, in very real terms. Now that it costs next to nothing to idle all day long, it seems we've begun to simply use Avalon as an outlet to vent at others, cause annoyance and boast about it later to our cliquish friends.

Point I am trying to make, is that the powers that be see what we do and say to eachother, and to them. And because of that, might be less inclined to invest their own effort into making it a better environment when it'll be pissed on by the majority of the player-base, their RP-efforts torn to shreds and new ideas called stupid and weak. (very real examples of these all that I won't share exist)

So the steady decline, in my opinion, is more due to the player-base than the people behind the business who seem to be taking most of the criticism.

So I am late in reading this but damn well said!

[Mirrigold]

As one who still remembers when Avalon was TRULY expensive to play (hourly charging/sleeplearning/phone bills from modem usage) I can honestly say that the current billing format is rather affordable.

That being said, however, I am firmly of the opinion that the change in charges was what in part caused the current state of affairs. Initially, it made the game more accessible to the masses in the gaming community and boosted the populace to the peak times you remember Sisyphus.

Then came the era of DSL/Cable access to the internet. This, combined with the change to monthly charging, opened the game up to a whole new kind of gamer. I won't go further into this as it'll certainly offend some people.

Leads me to my question, would you want to spend time, money and creative energy enhancing the gaming experience of a community that is hell-bent on making eachothers lives as miserable as possible?

Avalon is largely (and always has been) what we make of it.

Couldn't agree more. The changing from an hourly rate to the fixed 24/7 fee for me is what's killed Avalon's dynamics. When I first started playing people didn't go AFK in storerooms or other protected locations for hours at an end because they couldn't afford to. It meant the land was far more dynamic, things were happening all the time and not just fighting.

I counted once that since my first steps into the world some eight years ago, 36 people that I played regularly, every day with, stopped playing Avalon. Without the interaction between people and the friendships and conflicts created in game between city mates, guild mates etc, then all you have is a very expensive text based version of Counterstrike.

[Narissa]

I beg to differ. Yes, the preponderance of "safe" spots and lessons acrued over time means that people will abuse that to make masses of comms and get bigger - but that's led to a duller, less active game, where people are afraid of conflict, not mindless fighting. Counterstrike has combat - anyone who's been active of late can attest that Avalon really does not. Instead, there are things like duellists, pacifists, gods who zap their follower's enemy at the hint of "bullying" and so on - people have, in short, gotten soft.

One would think being able to play for hours would bring about the reverse. Who cares about health, equipment and so on, if you can get it all back later - it's not like time is restricted, right? However, we're seeing the opposite. People are freaking out and being "traumatized" if they get jumped once, which leads me to think the issue isn't being allowed to play for long amounts of time, but rather the mindset behind those who are playing. Avalon has always struggled to find a balance between too much and too little, especially in terms of aggression and combat. Right now, we're definitely tipping the "too little" side - which only is a self-sustaining cycle. The more death is viewed as terrible and bad and scarring, the less people will try, and the more we'll see people sitting doing aimless, dull things instead.

I'd love to see a push to change this. It's simply not right to spend HOURS logged in and see the only killing blows going to bunnies and boars.

[Elmak]

Narissa is right in this one. Avalon has grown 'soft' from when I was  younger. I'm not ancient, but I've been playing for 4 years now, with only one 6-month hiatus. The fighting has greatly declined in both intensity and complexity. Many complain of wrongful death and 'unfair' attacks, which causes combat to decrease immensely. I've always tried to teach my cubs about fighting honourably and standing up to death as an experience, not a complaint. Unfortunately, I don't run the most popular Guild in Avalon, so I don't have as many minds to mould.

Of Duellism, I disagree with it. If it is to exist, it needs more constraints and allocations than it does currently. I lead a bash with a duellist yesterday and when I accidentally left her behind, I couldn't drag her along because of that status, despite the fact she whacked a monk not a moment earlier. Had I been one to fiercely defend the monks of Kenkria's Abbot, I would have been able to do nothing to stop her.

[Crael]

Duelling is too little too late. It needed some revision of bloodlust to protect players between LW and their first Ult I always thought. I think Narissa makes a good point about things swinging from one extreme to the other but in any case Avalons declining population is down to far simpler issues which are not in game IMHO.

Simply put, most young game players expect graphics these days. How many players of Avalon are under the age of 25? The graphic gaming industry was pretty basic when Avalon started - I think even the first DOOM hadnt been released.  Now it has to compete with WoW, Eve, et al. And within its own niche of text RPGs it has to compete with some fairly active and energetic game designers who I think are better at marketing and quicker at building.

The final factor is the speed of character development. People I know who play WoW can level up a character fairly high within a couple of weeks. In Avalon after a couple of weeks you are lucky if you have health above 480 and enough skills to kill an orc. Fact of life - everyone wants everything faster these days.

Fair comment?

[Crael]

As an addendum; the other idea I had about giving a boost to smaller players attacked by bigger was that if you were killed by a 'bigger' player you died/shipped etc but didnt lose any health. That may sound rather mad in terms of game reality but in practical terms if the little guy isnt going to lose health (but might lose goods, items etc) they would be more likely to drop DP immediately and charge back in. Therefore more fighting and more of a learning experience. Or at least the wouldn't be waiting around for a bash to reach a health that would give them a fighting chance.

Possibly becoming a different topic and definately wouldnt ever be implemented, but does anyone see any sense in it? Its not as big a change as it might seem.